Behind the Curtain of Career Coaching: My Live Coaching Session

Pat welcomes back JP Michel — career coach and founder of SparkPath — for a vulnerable, real-time coaching session recorded during a pivotal moment in Pat’s life. Fresh off a layoff and questioning whether he was just going through the motions again, Pat sits down with JP to explore what he actually wants from his next chapter. Using SparkPath’s Challenge Cards — a tool used by over 100,000 young professionals — JP guides Pat through the uncertainty, helping him reconnect with excitement, clarify his needs, and rethink what meaningful work could look like.

Together, they explore what it means to choose purpose over autopilot — and how to make space for something new, even in seasons of fear and transition.

What You’ll Learn:

• What to do when career success no longer feels aligned
• How to identify the problems you want to solve — not just the roles you can fill
• The value of coaching during major life transitions
• Why defining your needs and desires is harder (and more important) than it seems
• How to expand your job search beyond what's posted online
• What vulnerability, intuition, and clarity can offer in moments of professional doubt

Social Media Links:

• After Peter Pan Podcast: 
  • Facebook
  • Instagram
  • LinkedIn
  • YouTube
• JP Michel:
  • Sparkpath - Challenge Cards
  • JP Michel's website
  • JP's book - The World Needs You

Chapters

• 0:00 Hook & Intro
• 2:51 Filtering for Excitement, Not Just Fit
• 6:58 Reclaiming Excitement in the Job Search
• 13:08 What Size Company is Right for Me?
• 16:38 Connecting Past Excitement to Future Work
• 18:12 What If This Is the Wrong Path?
• 22:43 Redoing the Challenge Cards Live
• 25:47 Picking Challenges That Excite Me
• 33:27 The 70/30 Split: Playing It Safe vs. Playing Big
• 36:27 Future Pat and the Top Three Challenges
• 52:51 Homework: Targeting with Curiosity
• 1:01:32 Outro

Transcript

JP Michel (00:02)
a made up stat in career exploration. 20 % of available jobs are posted in 80 or not. Have you heard this one?

Put yourself in the founder or hiring manager's shoes. It's extremely hard to make a good hire. Companies are not that good at it. They're gonna look for internal recommendations or they're gonna look for external recommendations. If all that fails, then they post the job outline. So what I'm saying to you is that, is it possible that you're limiting your job search to the 20 visible job postings and that you're not considering

the 80 % untapped hidden job market.

Pat (00:34)
Part of me is wondering if I'm being vulnerable enough. if I'm really getting at the truth of the matter when I'm answering your questions or if I'm answering the questions with an outcome in mind.

when you reached out and offered this conversation, did you have something in mind? what made you offer that to me?

JP Michel (00:54)
I just, all I want to do is change your life, that's all.

Pat (00:56)
Hahaha

Pat Tenneriello (01:00)
Welcome to After Peter Pan, the podcast about growing up and finding purpose. I'm your host, Pat Tenneriello. In this episode, I'm joined again by JP Michel, career coach and founder of Spark Path and the Challenge Cards. JP was our very first guest on the podcast and that episode remains one of the most downloaded to date. It was about finding meaning in your career. This conversation was actually recorded last summer. I had been laid off from my job. was at.

actively job hunting. So was during a period of great uncertainty and I wasn't really sure what came next for me. So JP offered to do a career coaching session using his challenge cards. They've been used now by over a hundred thousand young professionals at some of the world's top universities. I think we had a very raw, insightful conversation, And I think it would be helpful for people who may be

feeling stuck in their career, maybe looking for a change, maybe looking for some guidance, maybe curious to know what it would be like to work with a career coach. And I think this episode is for you. I hope you enjoy it.

JP Michel (01:59)
Pat, I'm so glad we're meeting. How are you?

Pat (02:02)
great man I'm super excited thank you for reaching out and agreeing to share your brainchild with me I'm looking forward to going through this with you

JP Michel (02:12)
It's easy to do because when I think about the amount of people you've helped, the skills that you bring to the table, I think about the many, many opportunities in the world, the people whose day, today they're having a bad day because you don't work there. I know that it's, you don't know them yet. We still have to figure them out who they are, where they are, but I know they exist. So that's one of the things that drives me. So it's very easy to say yes to do this exercise together. I think...

One of the things I want to do today is add some speed and velocity and clarity to your process because you're currently looking for a job, correct? What's the best way I can be useful for you today?

Pat (02:51)
I am approaching my job hunt a bit like I do when I'm selling. So I'm building a pipeline of opportunities. I'm not aiming at everything. Like with a machine gun, I am sort of identifying what I think could be a fit and then adding it to my pipeline. But I feel like I could do a better job of, and really putting in things that I'm excited about. things that are what I would view as quality.

so I'd like, that would be one area that could be very useful. And then part of me thinks I'm, I'm a little bit on autopilot where it's like, this is what I know how to do. So this is what I'm doing, but maybe I need to take a step back here because what I wouldn't want to happen is that I, I just go on autopilot, end up in a job where I feel the exact same way that I've felt in the past, which is not always all bad, but there are, there have been kind of recurring patterns and I would

I hope that that doesn't occur this time.

JP Michel (03:46)
That's fair enough. Yeah, I like the first part. We'll tackle all of it. But the first part, filtering. You want to do a better job at filtering, and you want to add some parts that are more exciting. Can you tell me more about that? Like, where are you now, and where would you like to be when it comes to those two things?

Pat (03:47)
That makes sense.

So right now I'm filtering based on personal need, like my personal circumstances with my family. It really comes down to, need work flexibility. I need to be a hundred percent remote. I need to be able to work on two continents between Montreal and Italy. That's one, that's like at the top of the list. And then the second one is I don't want to take a step back from a compensation perspective. And those are the top two things. Everything else is like, you know, I'd like to work in tech. I like tech.

And you know what, that's not even, I'm aiming at tech because that's what I know how to do. And that's where my experiences I'm aiming at relatively young companies. Cause that's where I get traction. and I'm, I'm aiming at a manager position where I can manage a team of sales executives. I'm aiming at a sales role. Maybe I should start there. but a manager role where I can eight, where I can manage a team.

and kind of higher lead coach mentor. I like that. But I'm also open to an individual contributor role if it's like a senior enough role that is challenging enough. So again, there's some flexibility there. That's where I'm at.

JP Michel (05:07)
Your carteria sounds great. They're very self -aware. know what you like. Did you say you had an issue with your filters? What do you want to be different when it comes to your filtering?

Pat (05:16)
good question.

think about that.

JP Michel (05:19)
Take your time.

Pat (05:20)
I'm agnostic in terms of industry and vertical. And I wonder if that is too broad or if I should put more thought into it. Like for example, in the last three years, I worked for a company selling a visibility platform like asset tracking and that space I've spoken to many executives. They're all saying the same thing. There's no growth. was, there's no growth. Everyone's struggling with the same thing. No deals are coming in.

And that's a substantial part of my network. I'm, but I'm still reaching out. So it's like, should I really be tech agnostic or should I maybe write that vertical off and focus on AI where, you know, Presumably there's a, there's a ton of growth. So that would be an area of filtering that could be useful.

JP Michel (06:00)
Well, how many companies are in your pipeline?

Pat (06:01)
maybe a dozen.

JP Michel (06:03)
So have 12, and you want more or less?

Pat (06:07)
I would say more.

JP Michel (06:09)
I think so too. to get more, this part I don't know. So you have to help me understand because you know the mechanics of filtering and aiming better than anyone because of your sales experience. How do you get from 12 to 120? that the number that you want? You tell me. And then do you get from 12 to 120 by adding filters or removing them? I'm open. You're going to tell me what you think.

Pat (06:31)
it could be both. Like it's not necessarily one or the other, right? Because even if you add filters, there could still be a huge pool or the pie could still be huge. And you don't want to get in front of people that have no interest getting in front of you. So it could be both. More filters or less filters. It's, Does that make sense?

JP Michel (06:45)
Okay, great.

Can I jump

to the exciting filter? Because it feels to me like you said the word exciting. When you say exciting, that excites me. So was there something exciting that you want to add to your filters?

Pat (06:58)
Something exciting would be like, podcast is exciting. When you and I recorded that session last week, I was excited before, during, and after. I feel like that level of excitement isn't present in my current job search. And...

JP Michel (07:14)
What's the difference

between, go ahead, you finished. I want to hear what you have to say.

Pat (07:18)
Well, part of me when I got laid off was thinking like, do I do something totally different? Do I learn something completely new? And some time has gone by and I haven't really gone in that direction. I've stayed with what's, call it what's comfortable because of my personal circumstances. just, if, you know, I determined that that was the right place for me at this moment in time, but I questioned that sometimes.

JP Michel (07:43)
Yeah, that's fair. What's the difference between the podcast that you and I did and the way job searching feels to you?

Pat (07:50)
One feels more like a chore job searching. podcast is exciting cause it's my own. It's like my child. have more of, I have a direct, well, the direct impact on it. it's my creation. It's something new that I'm learning all kinds of stuff that I didn't know. And so that's, that's really fun.

JP Michel (08:10)
Okay, well, you just did a little bit of magic. Did you notice?

out of thin air, you created some exciting criteria. So let me...

give you an invitation.

using an abundance mindset that there are so many companies that you could work for that would be dying to have you. In this scenario, which I think is really close to the truth by the way, you command tremendous power because of what you can offer to a company. That includes a fantastic salary, but also autonomy on your job. Give me some ridiculous ideas please on how you could

either create a sales role or a sales manager role or a chief revenue officer role in an organization or tweak an existing role, like with an existing job application for like a salesperson, they would add your magic. Okay, so please be aggressive. More direct impact, more your own, more your creation, more new learning, and then more anything else that would make this an amazing job for you.

Pat (09:12)
What comes to mind is an established, like a company that, that is like entrenched in, in one place, like they sell something, but then all of a sudden they're feeling the pull from the market for something that they've never done before. and they're like, and then they, bring on someone strategic, like a strategic salesperson to build out kind of a new vertical of their business.

That would be something where I would, and then they would hire me and that would be my role. It's going to build out this new piece of the business and suss it out and figure out if it could work. So that would be exciting because I would take ownership of it. It would be something that there's no path. So I have to blaze a new path. So it'd be challenging. I'd have to learn a lot.

So that could be one scenario. Another scenario could be a startup where they're kind of building out their sales team. The only caveat I would say there is that I just came out of working for a startup

was a really hard challenge of product market fit. Like there was some frustrations there where I, I felt,

I felt.

feel.

I was frustrated because it didn't seem like the company was ready for me.

JP Michel (10:24)
Isn't that a great criteria?

Pat (10:26)
Yeah, yeah, I think it is.

JP Michel (10:27)
What are the three readiness factors that a company needs to have to be ready for you?

Pat (10:32)
I would say I would want a product that's built and works. I would want a company that has...

company that has enough resources that they can get behind me and like my vision or my strategy.

Yeah, those are the two that come to mind.

JP Michel (10:45)
You just described a broader set of companies than startups.

Pat (10:49)
Yeah, yeah, I would say definitely like a series B kind of thing or beyond like more of a scale up. Yeah.

JP Michel (10:56)
Where can you find 100 interesting Series B and Beyond Scale Up companies?

Pat (11:02)
LinkedIn, ZoomInfo, mean, kind of databases where you can filter by that sort of thing.

JP Michel (11:08)
I don't know how to do that, by the way. You can use LinkedIn to do that.

Pat (11:12)
If you have a premium membership, there's a lot of filters on the left hand side when you do like a contact search. I think you could even do a company search. You could filter by employee number or you can search by revenue. So you may not be able to do like series B, like what funding around their app, but you can pick a number that would kind of correspond at least to it.

JP Michel (11:22)
Yeah.

How many series do you need to work for a US based company?

Pat (11:38)
No.

JP Michel (11:38)
Great. So how many in the world, how many Series B or Beyond or Scalops are there?

Pat (11:44)
I mean, probably many, many, many thousands.

JP Michel (11:48)
So 2000, I'm gonna chat GPT. I need some help. You?

Pat (11:52)
Okay,

sure.

JP Michel (11:53)
Hold on, didn't, that was the lower cap that you don't have to commit to, but I'm inviting you to think about it this way. What's the top cap? Like is that an employee size or a revenue number? You don't wanna work for Google. You haven't told me why, but I'm just guessing based on what you've said so far.

Pat (12:12)
I'm okay with, with a very high or no top cap because I could still see a scenario where, you know, these big companies like Google, they build out new verticals all the time. Like now it's all about their cloud. No, sorry. Now it's all AI before that it was cloud. Like, so well, if they're building out a new vertical, they're probably hiring dozens or hundreds of people to build it out. So it's probably not going to be.

Quite the same. Yeah, so maybe we should put a top cap. What if we said.

No more than...

5 ,000 employees or something like that.

JP Michel (12:46)
and what's the minimum number of employees?

Pat (12:48)
100?

JP Michel (12:50)
How many at your last company?

Pat (12:51)
About 10.

JP Michel (12:52)
At a 100 person company, would you be the lead salesperson or would you be second or third in line when it comes to revenue?

Pat (12:58)
in this scenario where I'm building out a new vertical or like, like the likelihood of me being like a chief revenue officer at a hundred percent company probably wouldn't wouldn't start at that level. Not yet anyway. So, ⁓ so yeah, yeah, but that's okay.

JP Michel (13:08)
Yeah, that's what I see too.

So then how many employees are at that company? I love that pivot scenario. remember ownership, challenging, learning a lot. I have the resources to back me up. Like it's a cool scenario. How many employers are there?

Pat (13:23)
Employees are there.

You're suggesting maybe 100 is too high?

JP Michel (13:27)
I thought so, and you just said it too.

so the leap you're gonna make now is either you're work for a 25 person company or 50 or 100. There are great, I don't know if we've said this clearly out loud yet, there are great reasons for you not to work at a 25 person company again.

Pat (13:42)
Hmm.

JP Michel (13:43)
Am I listening correctly or am I taking some things you said too seriously?

Pat (13:48)
No, I think that's right. Part of me wants to move away from, from the such early stage companies. want to, I want to know a company that, that they, they know what they're selling and they know who they're selling it to. what, what if we doubled 25 and said 50?

JP Michel (14:00)
50 to 100, okay? And I'm just trying to identify scenarios. 50 to 100, that sounds really cool. I felt a bit concerned about your openness to working for Google, who has how many employees?

Pat (14:18)
I don't know, the tens of thousand, if not over a hundred thousand.

JP Michel (14:20)
It's

yeah, it's a big that's a big shift. Is it is it as exciting? Have you formulated the exciting Google scenario to invest time into that?

Pat (14:30)
Well, the way what would be exciting about like a Google, right? It's like if they're building it like something that's in high growth, like they're building out a new a new business, which I would assume like is maybe AI for them or something like that today. And it's like Greenfield. It's like it's new. It's like that would that could be cool. And yeah, yeah. So and you know,

JP Michel (14:45)
Got it.

Yeah, that's great. Keep going, keep going.

Pat (14:53)
Part of me being a family man now having a kid, one income family, having that sort of backing from a big company, it's you know, it's secure, right? And probably the salary and the comp will be better than what I would get from like a 50 person company.

JP Michel (15:11)
Well, let's you use secure. wrote down stability while you were talking. It's a split. It's a split of base plus commission plus equity. What's the split you're looking for at this stage of your life? I think that's the type of thing that's worth writing down. I don't know the numbers. I don't think you want to do that with me now. We could, if you think it's extremely useful, because that's a variable in this different scenario. The 50, 100 person company, we know.

We can guess the split. It's more risky for them. It's going to be more risky for you. And there's good things about risk too. And then the more stable company, they're likely going to mitigate a lot of that risk. Am I getting it right?

Pat (15:53)
Yeah, that's right. mean, I, what motivates me is uncapped commission. Some, some mature companies will cap commission so they're not liable to pay you out when you, when you have a breakout quarter. So I definitely would put uncapped commission. And then in terms of a ratio, you know, 60, 40 base to variable is probably what I, what I'm used to and what I'm, you know, what is typically how, is how it's sussed itself out. Something like that.

JP Michel (16:20)
But isn't it different from scenario, from small to big company? Doesn't that split change?

Pat (16:25)
typically the smaller companies will reduce base and we'll try and entice you with upside potential. Yeah, that's right.

JP Michel (16:33)
Okay, what's the most useful part of our conversation for you so far?

Pat (16:38)
Well, like when you call out the exciting parts of what we talk about. And I like that we're, it's been helpful to tie in the excitement I felt from the podcast to my actual job search.

JP Michel (16:50)
Yeah, it's a perfect analogy. got to tell you in our field, we do it with a lot of stuff. Today, later, I might ask you about your favorite movies, TV shows, your favorite songs. Podcasts is perfect. And all of these other things can yield some huge insights that give us very creative ideas about what you might be looking for. Did you know that?

Pat (17:08)
that you ask these kind of random like movies sort of questions.

JP Michel (17:12)
It feels random, but what if I told you that there's a whole body of literature, academic literature that supports this line of questioning? And that's the theory, and that practically, I've personally seen it as a huge insight in my own self -coaching and coaching my employees and in career development in general.

Pat (17:32)
Do you find when you do this, like, so I'll tell you what's going through my mind as we do this, okay?

Part of me is like wondering if I'm being vulnerable enough. Like if I'm really getting at the truth of the matter when I'm answering your questions or if I'm answering the questions with an outcome in mind.

JP Michel (17:49)
Yeah, good. So what's the answer? I understand completely and I love the thought. And would you be willing to venture a guess?

Pat (17:49)
I don't know if you understand.

I think I'm more outcome oriented right now in my answers than I am vulnerable.

JP Michel (18:00)
Yeah. What would it bring you if you were to be 10, 50 or 75 % more vulnerable? What's in it for you?

Pat (18:12)
Well.

Like the vulnerable part would be to say like.

It like it like there's it's the uncertainty, right? Like I'm answering these questions, but then I'm like, I'm not 100 % sure in these answers, right? And then like, and part of me is also thinking, maybe this is all wrong. Like maybe I maybe I deep down want to be this in my life. You know what mean? Like I want to be a politician or I want to do like, it's like totally 180 from what we're talking about. Like that's what goes through my mind as I'm answering. Like we're trying, you're trying to keep me driven down this path. And I'm like,

in my mind, I'm like, but maybe I want maybe this is the wrong path. Do follow what I'm saying?

JP Michel (18:49)
Yeah, this is a bigger question than what you brought up earlier about, what did you call it? Something totally different. You said it earlier. What if I want to do something totally different? And you've told me you've thought about this before. You've had some good ideas. Be a founder, be a salesperson. Are you looking for stability? We know what a sales role is for you right now. It's

Pat (19:01)
Yeah.

god, yeah.

Yeah.

JP Michel (19:15)
money, it's salary, it's supporting your family, it's de -risking. But there is some curiosity about doing something totally different, correct?

Pat (19:23)
yeah, there's curiosity. There's also like the challenge of doing it. There's like the growth, the growth that will come out of it. There's the risk that is this there's the fear. There's you know, there's there's a lot. And it seems like throughout my life, I've it's come up and gone. And every time it's come up, it's like I've there's been a reason why

There's been a reason why it makes sense to stick to the path that I've chosen, which is, you know, sales, a great career in tech sales.

Right.

So I wonder for the purposes of this conversation, if that's okay, if I just say to myself, that's okay, to make the most out of the time we have together, let's assume that I'm sticking with that path and let's optimize it and be as efficient as we can. Would you agree that that's?

JP Michel (20:10)
Give me a beautiful oar.

Pat (20:12)
Or we say, let's go back to the drawing board and like.

Look at the challenge cards that I picked out from the exercise and kind of go back to square one. That would be the order.

JP Michel (20:23)
What

would be more exciting for you?

Pat (20:26)
Probably. Well, more exciting would be the cards more useful.

would be what we've been doing.

JP Michel (20:33)
You're a responsible person. The useful matters. Last time I checked, every day you need to eat. That makes sense. And I think your insight to look into excitement is pretty powerful. I think we typically, in this moment of the job search process, focus on our analytical mind instead of our intuitive mind. I'm open for either. You know what's best.

I would welcome the opportunity to do something exciting like a redo your challenge cards live now. And I know that just simply having that exercise and that follow -up conversation would actually end up feeding into both.

your need or curiosity about doing something completely different and would have practical applications for you taking on another great tech sales role, one that could be even better than any tech sales role that you've had before.

Pat (21:22)
So you're saying both roads will ultimately be useful even if.

even if I stay the course and we, you know, the cards could still be useful in staying the course.

JP Michel (21:33)
If we decide to redo your challenge cards and talk about them right now, that conversation will help you in both scenarios.

Pat (21:41)
Right. Did you, when you reached out and offered this conversation, did you have something like in mind? Like I was curious, like what made you offer that to me?

JP Michel (21:53)
I just, all I want to do is change your life, that's all.

Pat (21:56)
Hahaha

JP Michel (22:01)
I love you. That's one. Two, what a great excuse for us to spend time together and work, not just spend time together socially, which we have, but like to work on a project together. That's fun. And some people don't see like a coaching career coaching session that way. do. Three, you know, I'm always trying to improve my coaching, my tools, my mindsets. Those are the outcomes. That's it. That's what I was looking for. And that's, that's more than enough for me to.

spend the time with you. Does that answer your question?

Pat (22:29)
Yeah, well, thank you. That answers the question.

JP Michel (22:31)
I don't know if you're supposed to tell your coaching, the person you're coaching that you love them, but here we are. So yeah, what do you think?

Pat (22:34)
I love you too,

Let's do the cards.

JP Michel (22:43)
Great. Can we redo them?

Pat (22:45)
Sure.

JP Michel (22:46)
Great. So let's do them together where you'll share your screen, and then I'll guide you to where you need to go, which is sorting the cards from scratch.

Pat (22:56)
Okay, should I use the illegal login that I was given that I didn't have to pay for?

JP Michel (23:00)
Yeah, you should. And the website is app .mysparkpath .com. And if you share your screen, I'll even see you redo the sort, which I think will be fun.

Did you know that over 90 ,000 students have been on this website?

Pat (23:13)
I did know that stat because I'm reading your book, man. And it's pretty amazing. That is a crazy stat. What was your goal again?

JP Michel (23:22)
100 ,000, but then after 100 ,000, I got to figure out how did we get to 1 million. And you're going to give me your advice on that one day.

Pat (23:30)
I would love to.

I'm at the point in your book, by the way, where you meet someone when you're traveling in Costa Rica, and it's a woman and she likes to put herself in situations like, where that are outside of her comfort zone. Do you remember that?

JP Michel (23:36)
Hmm

Yes, I do. I'll never forget meeting with her. She likes being in places where she doesn't belong. She likes being in places where she doesn't belong.

Pat (23:47)
and

But so here's the thing, I was really enjoying that story and like it started off with like, she had no idea what she was going to do and you guys are talking and you're asking her questions and like, and so was like, okay, I could totally relate to that. But then at some point it goes to, imagined her, she, she had a vision to transform the world of sustainable fashion. So she already had an idea, like she wasn't completely clueless or did you tease that out of her?

JP Michel (24:21)
That's typical, Pat. I regularly meet some people who say I have no idea what I want to do. And then they do the challenge cards, or we talk about their favorite movie, or we talk about something else. And then some idea comes up. But it's not the right idea. It's not fuzzy. They're not sure. They haven't taken it seriously. But there's something there. And that's been my experience, like, at scale.

The people who show up saying, don't know, I'm not sure, or I have no idea. Once you peel back the layers and you know how to access some of these ideas, and I call it through the back door instead of the front door, there's usually the start of an idea that's already there. Does that make sense?

Pat (25:05)
Yeah.

Okay. Sometimes is it hard? Sometimes do you not get there?

JP Michel (25:08)
my,

yeah, we only meet with the people who have been trying to do this on their own for months or for years and they're stuck there. We meet with only the most stuck people. So it is really hard, but that makes it really powerful and enlightening and satisfying when someone has an epiphany. It's very, powerful. So maybe for career advisors, it's like a drug. You like you want that hit of like a big insight. It's not what coaching.

Pat (25:30)
I wanna, I

JP Michel (25:37)
career coaching is about. I don't think it's about hitting home runs or grand slams, but it does happen. It does happen.

Pat (25:43)
Wow, I'd like to have one of those. I hope we have that. I'm gonna share my screen. I'm logged in. Let

JP Michel (25:47)
Okay.

Perfect, yeah. And I'm just gonna remind you of why we're doing this. By looking at the challenges you wanna solve in the world, we're gonna look for a couple different things. Number one, if you were to do something totally different, what would it be, why? What might interest you? Looking at challenges to solve is a new way to think about that that might give us new perspectives you don't have before. Second, if you wanna do another great tech sales job, you might favor the company's...

Pat (25:55)
please.

JP Michel (26:20)
that are working on the challenges you care about, which I think would be great because it's going to make you a better salesperson when you're there, and it's going to make you a better applicant along the way. And even before that, you're going to care more about researching this challenge, this industry, those companies, about meeting with people for informational interviews because you care about their mission and the problem they're trying to solve.

We don't need to be completely practical because during this exercise I just want you to follow your intuition as you look through the cards and just choose what speaks to you.

Pat (26:49)
Okay, so we're doing this live. Are you gonna like comment or are you just gonna?

JP Michel (26:54)
I'm gonna sit here quietly. You're gonna take as much time as you want. And for each card, you're gonna choose what you're very interested in, interested or not interested in. And if you have thoughts or questions or feelings along the way, take your time and share them with me if you'd like.

Pat (26:59)
Okay.

Okay.

JP Michel (27:11)
I'm also going to tell you if you're picking the right or the wrong cards.

Good thing you know my sense of humor. Good thing you know my sense

Pat (27:19)
That's good.

I feel judged that I don't want to end poverty.

JP Michel (27:23)
A lot of people feel that way, Pat. I should tell you, maybe 30 % of people who do the cards feel that way. Here's my reply to you. You can't work on all the challenges. You can't work on all the challenges at the same time. If you tried to, you wouldn't be very good at it. Is that fair?

Pat (27:40)
Yeah.

JP Michel (27:42)
Can I stop you there? How'd go?

Pat (27:43)
It went well. I think it was, didn't, I just kind of followed my intuition. There were a couple where I could have gone, you know, any, I could have gone a few ways, but for the most part, it was pretty straightforward.

JP Michel (27:55)
Okay, great. Are you ready to go to the next stage?

Pat (27:57)
Yeah, I know this stage. It's tougher for me.

JP Michel (28:01)
Great, let's take our time with this one.

Pat (28:02)
Okay, so pick your top three.

Would you say most people like end up with a short list about this big or would you say this is shorter or longer than

JP Michel (28:09)
I think that's typical, it might be slightly bigger. You are in a smaller group that didn't choose a very interested card. That doesn't pose any obstacles at all. It's just a difference call out.

Pat (28:10)
most people.

I didn't get that difference. Say again?

JP Michel (28:23)
Go up, scroll up

a little bit, it's just a technical thing. Go up a little bit. There's three piles, very interested, interested, and not interested. You didn't choose any in the very interested pile.

Pat (28:26)
Yeah.

Hmm.

JP Michel (28:35)
Why do you think that is?

Pat (28:36)
It's easier to know what I don't like than what I like.

I don't, it's hard for me to like really pick one thing.

I'm pragmatic and I'll kind of think of the pros and cons of each versus just saying, I really want that.

JP Michel (28:50)
Yeah, how does that serve you?

How does that help to be pragmatic?

Pat (28:55)
Well, think I can, like when people ask me like, what do you like better living in Canada or Italy? It's like, think of the, it's like, it's nuanced. There's like good and bad in both. There's good and bad in everything. So I think it, it keeps me, I think I kind of see things in a more realistic, like a real way and I may be more positive.

that make sense?

JP Michel (29:13)
And how does it,

yeah it does, I think it's great. I think it does serve you. And then how does it not serve you?

Pat (29:18)
I think it creates some uncertainty and indecisiveness.

JP Michel (29:22)
I think one other, if I may add, a practical implication is that if you want to do tech sales for anyone, that might make your job search more difficult. And it might.

you might miss an opportunity to work for a company whose mission you really believe in. Is that fair?

Pat (29:41)
It's fair.

I tend to put the needs of others ahead of my own in the sense that like, I don't define my needs. Like I don't define what I care most deeply about. You know what mean? Like maybe I don't know if I've taken enough time to think that through, or it's just something that I have a hard time.

Like I said, it's easier for me to know what I don't want to do than to know what I want to do.

JP Michel (30:05)
Yeah, I get it. not knowing what you want to do, knowing what you don't want to do is actually a huge asset for us right now. So I'm going to selfishly celebrate it. But what about this piece? What if you were willing to try something different? What if you wanted to define your needs more selfishly? What if you wanted to look more deeply into what you really wanted to do? Like, how might that help you?

Pat (30:25)
I think it would help me tremendously. It'd just be a matter of, ⁓

putting that into practice. like, what does that look like? Is it like waking up before my son and like, sitting on my balcony and writing things down? it like, how would I actually implement that?

JP Michel (30:38)
My first reaction is that it's a great question. It's just definitely an inappropriate time to ask it. And I think that might be a judgment. I don't know if I'm right, Pat. It just means it might be, what if you're asking that too quickly before really sitting in the idea of what if I define my needs and what I wanted more deeply? think if you if you spent more time thinking about that, doing that.

might that help you define the more practical, like how do I put it in practice?

Pat (31:04)
Part of me feels like I don't know how to go about it. So that's why I think I jumped to that question. But part of me knows that if I did know how to go about it and I went about it that the.

think it would have positive it would be suit it would be positive like

Yeah, the idea of...

Being on a mission, like finding a mission or like knowing deeply what problem I want to solve. That'd be very motivating, you know. It'd be difficult because I have to admit to myself that I don't have it yet. And that I'm willing to forego all the other options in the pursuit of this one.

but I just feel like it's always been that elusive thing that I've never quite been able to grasp.

JP Michel (31:41)
I want to tell you about something I've seen. I've seen a lot of people do it. First of all, yes, they admit they don't have it yet, but they simultaneously pursue the mission without forgoing the other options, meaning they simultaneously commit to a more narrow set of companies or missions or problems to solve while staying open to other possibilities.

But the way they invest their energy and their time is purposeful. Like they might spend more time on what they're chasing, yet they stay open. The reason they stay open is because it turns out that there are so many possibilities that you and I can't even brainstorm right now, that we don't use the companies we don't know about. So what do you think about that way of approaching it, the dual finding my mission, I'm trying to know deeply and I'm...

pursuing one segment or company or mission more purposefully. And I'm staying open to something very different could come up.

Pat (32:41)
⁓ well, I like that because it would be easier to commit to something knowing that the door stays open for, for alternatives. But, then on the flip side part of me thinks, well, it's hard enough to pick something and aim at it and actually achieve it. it's like, and if you give a hundred percent of yourself, you're more likely to get there than if you gave like 50%. So it's like, you're, I'm going to be less likely to.

get there if I don't, you know, by, by leaving the door open. That's like the skeptic in me.

JP Michel (33:14)
Yeah, but I think you're it's it's right But I love the numbers that you brought up that like that makes this whole thing come to life for me So if it's not 50 50 and it's not 100 0. Can you give me another ratio? would be exciting

Pat (33:27)
of how much I'd be willing to commit and how much to leave open like, well, like the podcast is a good example, right? Where it's like, I'm seeing it as a hobby. It's like, it's not a job that's not going to pay my bills, but like, I'm willing to commit a certain amount of time to it and still have all that excitement and that newness and that learning. And I'm probably only giving 10 % of my time on that. And it has all these positive benefits.

But to answer your question, so yeah, guess I'd be willing to, you know, and it feels pretty good. It's like I'd be willing to give 10%. That would be enough.

JP Michel (33:59)
What's the 90 and what's the 10? Just for us to cement.

Pat (34:02)
10

is like the podcast and 90 is like my job search and my family.

JP Michel (34:08)
And would you be willing to do this again within your job search? Now you have a new hundred points for your job search. How much time would you split between companies that are working on the problem you want to solve versus companies that aren't?

Pat (34:22)
I would do maybe like 70 30.

JP Michel (34:27)
Great. Okay. Let me tell you about a different Pat. Okay. It's a Pat that six months from now has moved the needle on excitement. Number one, excitement. Number two, defining his needs and what he wants. In fact, like he's a little bit hard to recognize from the Pat of the past. And this shouldn't come as a shock to you because you have already reinvented yourself in your life. I mean,

to me, your new podcast idea is a form of your reinvention or telling the story of your reinvention. So that's the future Pat. Can you ask Pat to do this next part of the exercise? Like I want this exciting, focus on exciting, focus on defining his needs, going more deeply. Can you ask him to do this exercise? And before you start, just tell me one thing he might do differently.

Pat (35:18)
Okay, I'm asked, so Pat, six months from now, I'm asked, and the exercise is to define my needs and my wants and to devote like 70 % of my time to, in my job search to companies that are working on problems I care about.

JP Michel (35:33)
No, sorry, I made a mistake. When I didn't even sell you what the exercise was. The exercises, I want you to pick your top three cards. I forgot to say that. I want, I want future Pat to pick his top three cards and I want you to tap into how he thinks and feels and what he does differently. Just giving me one or two words to describe that. And then I want you to do this exercise as future Pat.

Pat (35:37)
Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, future paths defined as needs and as wants, then he's going to be he's going to I would say focus. And I would say.

Would I say discipline?

or maybe motivation.

Yeah.

How about all three? Focus, discipline, and motivation.

JP Michel (36:09)
Focus, discipline,

and motivation.

Great. This next part of you choosing your top three, would you like to do it quietly in your own mind or would you like to verbalize or vocalize what's going through your head as you do it? Both options are fine.

Pat (36:22)
What do you recommend?

JP Michel (36:23)
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Pat (36:24)
Okay, so yeah, why don't I just cut

JP Michel (36:26)
What if I said

I'm tired of hearing you talking? How would you have reacted to that?

Pat (36:31)
Probably just laughed like I did now.

JP Michel (36:37)
Thank you. Even if my jokes are not funny, sometimes you laugh. That makes for a good friend.

Pat (36:43)
Let's start. Promote healthy living. Well, like I think of like how I've implemented healthy living in my life and it like the positive effects it has on me and like I have this desire to like want to like share that. And I have this desire to continue to like

learn new things about healthy living and to like so this card spoke to me for that reason like to impart some of that of my experience with others

Improve mental health.

I think about this, like I have this vision. I've had this vision of like a mental health center, like almost like a mental gym where like you have meditation and like mindfulness in one room. You have like yoga in like another room and then you have like a psychologist or like counseling services in another room and it's like all housed under one building and like I've had that vision sometimes and so that's what always came to mind when I saw this card.

JP Michel (37:33)
And you've invested a lot in your learning and experience of meditation and mindfulness over the last few years.

Pat (37:39)
Yeah, let's put a heart. So if I had to pick between these two, I would put my heart on improvement to health over promote healthy living. Although there's a lot of overlap. I didn't read the details, but there's quite a bit of overlap between those two cards.

JP Michel (37:50)
If you want, you could tease out the differences or the similarities. You could read the back of the card. I think you're doing just fine sharing your intuition about what made you choose each one. But you're welcome to take your time to take a look.

Pat (38:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, mental health. This, guess, is more like, I would assume more physical. Yeah, heart attack, stroke and cancer, obesity. Yeah, so that's right. Mental health, I think, is more aligned.

Help people reach their potential. Let's just read that one. I'm assuming that's kind what you're doing with me. These are opportunities to research your potential. Vulnerable marginalized groups could benefit. The better we understand people. Yeah, no, this is not for me. You sound like a terrible person.

JP Michel (38:31)
Remember, you can't do it all, Pat. I'm going to ask you to pick three, right? And I know that you would help people reach their potential because that's literally what you do for your clients when you sell. And it's also what you would do in a mentoring or sales coaching capacity or sales leadership capacity.

Pat (38:47)
Now make something matter. I'm assuming these like this is more products than it is services.

JP Michel (38:53)
Well, let me tell you my intention when I made the card. I wanted this to make you think of something. So you're welcome to keep reading the back of the card if you want to know what some examples of how this comes to life. But you know how you did it for the first card improvement to health? I had, I was imagining a mental gym. The only reason I made the card is because I wanted you to say something like that. You're not going to say that for every card. You haven't imagined like a, you know, cross -diplosive.

disciplinary center for every card, but you're going to say something, a reason, something you like about each one. So if that's product, great. If it's not product, tell me what you're thinking as well.

Pat (39:29)
Yeah, so this card, like, again, my entrepreneurial ideas that ruminate in my head, like this is like, I love products that are quality. I wish there was like a place I could go and like everything on the shelf, I wouldn't even have to like, compare them. It's just like, I could pick it off the shelf, I know it's going to be quality, and it's going to like last. the idea of having quality. It's what come to mind when I saw this like an entrepreneurial, like, I don't know if it's a store or like, are you build a

Build a line of products that are only quality, that are like high price, high quality. Set things up the right way. So let's put a heart there. Set things up the right way. Let's read that card. Do you want to use special skills to things up the right way? Many people need to help install things that are complicated.

This is fun to do in my own home, but I don't see myself making a career of it. So that's probably not for me. Solve new challenges through entrepreneurship. Well, I've always had a love for entrepreneurship, always worked for startups. Like this is like a natural, deep desire for me. like, yes. Work on homes. This is like a problem that the...

Canada has, the world has, there's a shortage of houses, the costs of houses are astronomical, they're out of reach. I feel like this is a real problem that would be really challenging and fun to work on. And I've always had a love of real estate. So I really like this card too. Yeah, I like this card. I can't have a four, can I?

JP Michel (40:55)
Yes, all you need is a blank piece of paper in front of you. Do you have one? A blank piece of paper and a pen?

Pat (41:00)
Just write it down. Work on homes. Communicate ideas and emotions. This is a bit like selling, I would assume.

storytelling, followers, fans, and customers. This is more like social media marketing stuff when I see this. Not so into that. Create meaningful experiences for others.

Yeah.

Again, it reminds me of sales. I like it. Doesn't jump out at me as much as some of the other cards we've covered already.

JP Michel (41:26)
I see the link with sales for the last two cards. Just before we move on, would you be willing to tell me what made you choose them without looking on the back? Because you only looked at the front when you chose them.

Pat (41:35)
It was was the sales, right? Like telling a good story, speaking, you know, selling to emotion, even though like people are rational that you still need like there's emotional side to selling for sure. What's in it for them personally?

JP Michel (41:44)
lot of that.

very good at that, correct?

Pat (41:46)
Yes, I would say this is what I've done for most of all my career.

JP Michel (41:51)
How many years?

Pat (41:56)
Build great products. To me, there's a lot of overlap with make something that matters.

Yeah. So we'll move on. Use computers and technology. Well, I've always worked in technology. I do geek out sometimes about technology. I like to wrap my head around tech. Every new job I have taken has been in a new industry with a new technology. So it's always been a learning curve and that's always been a challenge. It's been fun for me. So that's why I picked this card.

It'd be like staying the course of my career versus like some of these other cards, which would be a 180.

help people who need you.

help people live better lives. think of like that mental health facility idea I mentioned, I kind of relate these two. Prepare great food. You know, sometimes I think like I'm in Italy, I'm in the South, like the food is amazing. Like what if I learned how to make the best gelato and then like brought it to Canada or the best mozzarella, like, so that's what I was thinking when I chose this card. It's like also would scratch my entrepreneur itch.

in reality, would I really want that sort of life, like working ridiculous hours at a restaurant? I don't know if I have the energy or the passion for food the way that you would need to do that. So maybe that's just a pipe dream.

sell a solution. Well, I was thinking of what I've done for the last 14 years.

And lead teams, well, that's like, when I think of lead teams, it's like, I've been doing it for 14 years. I think I have a lot of experience and knowledge. I'd love to help the younger generation, coach them and teach them. So there's a part of me that really likes leadership and like is ready for leadership and is ready to take on more responsibility. So that's why I picked that card.

JP Michel (43:42)
Yeah, I like that.

Pat (43:44)
run your own business. put that it's akin to entrepreneurship, although perhaps it's more like you could buy an existing business. You don't have to necessarily start something from scratch. Sometimes I think about that. like, I don't always, I had these ideas, but like more than anything, just like being my own boss, having my own business, maybe just buying an established business where someone's selling it. Like that could be appealing to me as well, potentially less risk.

So it's good cards here. It's really tough to pick three men.

JP Michel (44:11)
now.

Pat (44:11)
But I gotta do it. And we're getting low on time, aren't we?

JP Michel (44:17)
You mean you're getting low on time because every year you age one year and then you get closer to death? Is that what you mean?

Listen, was a joke about finite. You don't need to pick your top three right now. Why would it help you though to pick your top three right now?

Pat (44:31)
because it gets me towards defining my needs and my wants.

JP Michel (44:34)
I think so.

Pat (44:35)
Yeah. And it's, it's also an, yep, please. I was gonna say it's also an exercise in like, it's like, okay, you're picking three. It doesn't mean you're closing the door. There's like, there's no rule that says you can't go back.

JP Michel (44:36)
I'm gonna play it back. No, you go first.

Yeah, well, I want your point of view for 70 -30 in your job search that you defined as, you know, what's that 70 going to be? You'll have to make a decision. It doesn't need to be today. It can be tomorrow. But there's an advantage in it being today. And it's a risk. I know you're not sure. That's part of the process. The advantage is going to add clarity and velocity and speed, you know, to what you're doing. Let me play back some of the things that I heard from you. In the spirit of just echoing, and maybe there'll be some insights to what I heard, OK?

And you could always tell me along the way if I got things wrong. The health aspect that you started off with was pretty cool. Because of course, we hear the entrepreneurship lens of you literally starting a health center. But some of these companies might be the 50, 25, 100 person company that you want to support. There's a startup creating physical locations that are doing this. There's a startup doing what you had imagined online. One suggestion would be

after this meeting, would you be willing to research, I like to use Chachi Petit for this, 10, 100 companies of the range of employee size that we determined that are working on this? And then try to fall in love, meaning go to these companies and actually find out the problem they're trying to solve, find out what they're doing. And maybe some of them would go into that pipeline of companies that you might want to work for.

yes, in a tech sales role, but maybe in a slightly different role than you had imagined, maybe in a leadership role, maybe an individual contributor role. And I think some of those companies could end up in that bigger list that we talked about. Right now you have 12. You want to get to 120. That might feed in some new companies. What do you think?

Pat (46:29)
I think it's a good use of time. I like it.

JP Michel (46:31)
The chat -chip deprompter for that is, find me 10 or 20 companies that are working on.

improving mental health, you know, ⁓ either through meditation, mindfulness, or they have this amount of employees. don't know if JetJP is the capability of that, but you have some additional tools that could look at that. Can I move on? product that you want to build like has to have quality. And this tied right back to the conversation we had earlier about stage of startup. The earlier startups, the quality of the product is lower, I would argue, because of lack of product market fit or they're innovating, they're in a new space.

the further along you go, if you go all the way to series B, there's going to be a higher quality product depending on how you define quality. But my definition, that's true. Do you see that link, that connection, or do you see it differently?

Pat (47:16)
I, you brought it to light, now that you mentioned it, I do see it.

JP Michel (47:19)
Great. So that's one of the criteria. You've come up with lot of good criteria during this call, by the way. And if you decide to listen to this call again, it might help you create a polished list or maybe you feel like you already have it, but there's a lot of keywords that you've articulated that helps you in building that criteria for your companies. I see the link with sales, by the way, setting things up, selling, creating meaningful experiences for others. There's great links with sales. The tech part, that what kind of sales do you want to do?

What about homes? There's a lot of startups in the real estate space doing interesting things. Would you be willing to do the same exercise you did in health? Can you find five, 10, 50 organizations doing something innovative in the space of living, in the space of real estate? I think you liked that. You pitched a whole business idea to me in this space and it was very, very interesting. You don't need to do this work for a company that's doing the same vision that you had.

But there's some company out there doing old world, new world of what's happening in real estate that might really pique your interest. Any, what are your thoughts on that?

Pat (48:24)
Yeah, I like it. It is an area that I've thought about a lot and come back to like the number one, like flexibility remote priority. It's a little bit harder in this space because it's such a physical space that they...

you tend to need to be where the company is operating. But that's not always the case. There are AI real estate companies that are automating the architectural plans of a building, that sort of thing. That could be interesting.

JP Michel (48:52)
That's a fair hypothesis that it might be harder for you. And I agree with you that you shouldn't shut the door, assuming that real estate equals more on -site needs. Fair? I think less interesting, but you could do the same thing for food. What are the food plus tech opportunities? Their first idea on food sounded like import -export to me. And then your last idea you said restaurant, which I, you that might be something else. Which I think is fine.

Pat (49:03)
Yeah.

JP Michel (49:20)
I think just from this list, you could generate a huge amount of new companies that you haven't considered before. Do you see it like that as well or do you see it differently?

Pat (49:29)
I see it like that as well. Right now my search is mostly limited to my existing network or seeing who's hiring and then seeing who in my network is somehow connected to that company hiring and then reaching out. it's not, it hasn't been kind of, this is more of a step back and tying it to some of my interests. So I think it's good. Pitch me.

JP Michel (49:49)
Okay, so let me pitch you hard on this, Pat, are you ready?

There's a made up stat in career exploration. It's that 20 % of available jobs are posted in 80 or not. Have you heard this one?

Pat (50:03)
No.

JP Michel (50:03)
The spirit of that is, it's extremely hard. Put yourself in the founder or hiring manager's shoes. It's extremely hard to make a good hire. Companies are not that good at it. They want a trusted recommendation. So they're gonna do what? They're gonna hire internally. They're gonna look for internal recommendations or they're gonna look for external recommendations. If all that fails, then they post the job outline. So what I'm saying to you is that, is it possible that you're limiting your job search to the 20 % visible job postings and that you're not considering

the 80 % untapped hidden job market. That's a made up stat pad. Like it's really hard to measure things like that. But it's the idea is to show you the ratio, what might be true. If you go about it the way I just contacting, you know I'm gonna ask you to contact the companies eventually, you already know that piece. The contacting these companies, is it possible you discover hidden opportunities? What if you discover a company that's three months away from

You remember the beautiful scenario we had of the pivot? You know, there are three months, there's two months away from that, or they haven't even posted the job and you landed on their lap. That's why I started off saying this, this call, if somebody whose day was not good today because you don't work there, imagine what it'd be like for them to receive the call of like the perfect fit experience wise person that would help them make this pivot. Like they literally like, my gosh, like who's going to help us make this pivot? You called outreach to them saying like, Hey, like, let me find out.

are you trying to solve this problem? Let me find out. Hey, are you doing any pivots by the way? Like, yeah, we're doing a pivot. That level of serendipity, it happens. Is this, am I doing like too much like a...

Pat (51:36)
Mm

JP Michel (51:39)
Am I doing too much selling?

Pat (51:42)
Well, the stats seems optimistic

to me, like, who am I? I don't I don't know. I mean, I believe that that is the case that there are

serendipitous element and the connections of someone likes you like they'll find and they think that you bring value they'll find they'll find a place for you so I know I so I agree and my what I tend to think is start at the top like in terms of reaching out to people in the companies that identify I tend to go for the top like these CEO whatever you know very top and then

generally get referred to the right person. Is that what you typically see or is that what you recommend? Or do you recommend going in the HR route or the business leader route?

JP Michel (52:22)
I think your strategy is fine. I don't know if you're at the stage of heavily filtering who you're reaching out to in the organization. I like the peer approach. Your approach is great. Not a people have your confidence to do that, but you have so much experience doing that, which is a great fit. A lot of people do it differently, Pat. They just look for a peer, like a peer level or one level above. They look for their hiring manager, so you should definitely keep that as part of what you're doing. But for the pivot strategy, that sounds brilliant, the way you just suggested it.

Pat (52:43)
Hmm.

JP Michel (52:51)
And while we're talking about roadmap, what I'm asking you to do as homework is to go find companies using the process and the ideas that we just suggested, to be quite selfish in your research for what you're looking for. And then you know what I want you to do next is, you know, work backwards. We pick challenges you might want to solve. You're finding companies, then who works there that you think is interesting. That's the stage we're at now. It could be the CEO, could be your peer, anything in between.

sorry, we gotta say it out loud. It can be someone that's your junior. You can't rule that out, right? Like someone that's your junior that you know you're connected to or they'll be willing to talk to you. You know, at one point if you have 120 companies and you're looking to meet five people at each, yeah, maybe limit, but that's not a bad idea. And some people literally, that's what they do a podcast for, Pat, is because they meet with these people and then they do a podcast episode with the people that they like. Is that gonna be every person you meet? No, but you might meet something.

incredible people along this process and say, listen, like, I really hit it off with you and I would love to learn more about your mission or some people do it technically about how to be great at sales. I don't know if that's the right fit for you at this stage. You already have a podcast theme, which is about like evolution and reinvention in my words. There's some people that you might meet and have on your podcast and you know what happens when you take this approach to a podcast.

There's some of those people that come in your podcast that will refer you to other people which will broaden your network give you access to new companies and new problems to solve So now all of sudden that 10 of like another podcast is something completely different You just led with your excitement and it gave you new opportunities and I know for the last 10 minutes I've really focused on tech sale opportunities, but all of the themes we're talking about still apply if you want to have a more

I don't know what blue sky approach, is like, what if I take some time to think about entrepreneurship again? I think a lot of the themes and the topics we've discussed, they still apply to that scenario too.

Thoughts, questions, reactions, concerns, fears.

Pat (54:51)
It all sounds good. I want to hold myself accountable. how do I, on my homework, how do we follow up with each other? If you're willing to do that.

JP Michel (55:00)
Yeah, I see a couple of different scenarios. Tell me what works best for you. One that I like is you set a piece of homework for you right now. It's a big risk because you haven't really thought about this, but you set a piece of homework for like by Monday or by Friday, two ideas. I'm going to send you, you're going to send me a list of 10 companies, 50 companies, a hundred companies. Maybe that's what your schedule allows.

Maybe you'll go one step further. You're gonna send me your spreadsheet, plus you'll send me two, three people that work at those companies that you're gonna reach out to. Maybe you'll go a step further and commit to reaching out to some of them already. What about you? Like how aggressive, how fast do you wanna go? What's your timeline? What do you think about my suggestion for Monday, four days away from now versus Friday, which is a little bit longer?

Pat (55:53)
⁓ yeah, I think like a week deliver like deliverable on a weekly cadence is probably good right now with the summertime and everything. I don't feel like I need to, ⁓ go full speed ahead, doing the companies would be a good start. also the other thing is the defining my needs and my wants. Like I don't want to lose sight of that.

And I want that to be top of mind as well and not rush that.

Is that what we're doing here or is that something else?

JP Michel (56:20)
I think you need more. We started, you have a good list of what you need and want, but you see an opportunity to go much deeper into finding out your needs and your wants. So let me think about that after our call about what ideas I might have. But sometimes it's just a question of journaling for some people. I don't know if you like open ended journaling, but tomorrow morning, the first thing you're gonna do is gonna say, how can I get better at finding out what I need and what I want? I've got to tell you,

Another way I've been doing it is I'm coaching myself using ChatGPT. I'm asking ChatGPT to be my executive coach. I tell ChatGPT my strengths and weaknesses, my unique capabilities, and I say, listen, I want to create a one, I want to get better at finding my needs and my wants. I want to eventually create a one pager of like better needs and better wants and more exciting job. Give me a 10 step process that would help me do that. And let's do each step at a time. I get a lot of traction.

coaching myself using ChatGPT. I did it this week with a classic exercise of the strengths finder, CliftonStrengths. It's a popular tool in career development. People identify their strengths. I got my strengths and then I used ChatGPT to coach me about how to better use my strengths in my day -to -day. And I got some really good outcomes from that process. So that's one thing you could try out if you'd be willing to.

Pat (57:39)
Well, I definitely want to do the journaling and chat GPT has been helpful with my applications, I sounds pretty interesting for this as well.

JP Michel (57:49)
How many company names are you going to send me on Friday?

Pat (57:52)
How about...

A total, let's see. So we talked about mental health, we talked about real estate, we talked about food, food plus tech So what if we said a hundred total between those three?

JP Michel (58:03)
Beautiful, love it. Hey, what else did you want to talk about today that we haven't talked about yet?

Pat (58:08)
Man, you've been so generous with your time. I feel bad taking up any more of it.

JP Michel (58:13)
I appreciate that and I honor your guilt. And please remind yourself how much I love doing what I get to do. It's really fun for me. So you have to remember that.

Pat (58:24)
Let me stop sharing my screen so I could see more of your beautiful face.

I used the challenge mindset in an interview this week. basically the guy was talking about the job title and he was kind of walking me through it. And then, you know, he had seen my job titles on my CV and he was a little worried that I wouldn't be interested kind of thing. And I said, I don't think about jobs. think if I come into a company, focused on the problem that needs solving.

may have added a bit more color around that, but he was like, wow. I really liked that. And so I, that the focus on the problem resonates with people, you know, so I really just valid to validate, what I'm sure you've already validated many times over. But was the first time I used it. And I think it's very, a very powerful tool.

JP Michel (59:14)
Thanks for sharing your story. Yes, it has been validated. However, I spend most of my time with career advisors. So it's not at the same stage of the process as you are, or an interviewer in the workplace. So that I feel like it's cool to validate it there. And then so we can show how valuable that is when you're exploring careers as well.

was the most useful part of our conversation for you?

Pat (59:39)
What's good to feel like there's a plan in place, so like I know what my marching orders are, you know, I think that's really useful.

just sharing some of the blocks that happened to me when I'm going through this whole process. Like I block here, I block there and feeling like, you know, I'm not alone and just getting that out, getting that out in the open and talking about it is in itself useful.

It was fun to go through the cards again and just kind of brainstorm and kind of regurgitate what, you know, my, my ideas.

And just get excited about the search, right? Like it's process and it's the journey and

it makes the journey more pleasant more fun. Maybe not pleasant fun, you know, having some fun with it.

JP Michel (1:00:17)
I love your use of the word exciting. It was exciting for me and I brought it up several times. And you making it more exciting, more related to your needs and wants, I think there's a lot of power in that. So I thought it gets worth you spending more time and energy there. I love that part. And you're right, you're not alone. And this is not easy. The job search piece is not easy what you're doing. And I think you're bringing a lot of discipline. I think you're bringing a lot of your sales skills to it. I think you're bringing curiosity and that's going to help you.

Pat (1:00:44)
I know you've done this like many, many, many times. Like, this a pretty, is this pretty typical for how it goes? Or do you find this like, it never goes the same way twice? what do you think?

JP Michel (1:00:53)
No, you

have more, you bring a, you have a higher knowledge of job searching than most of the people I speak to, and that's not a knock on them. Like you need to learn job searching. You have a unique skill set to bring to job searching from your sales perspective. And you're curious and you're open. I think I tend to attract people who are like that, but it's always.

more fun to go about it that way.

Pat (1:01:24)
I really enjoyed it, so thank you for reaching out and for offering it. means a lot.

JP Michel (1:01:27)
You're welcome. My pleasure.

my pleasure. I'm glad to can't wait to see your homework assignment next week.

Pat Tenneriello (1:01:32)
Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of After Peter Pan. If it resonated with you, I'd love if you could leave us a like, drop us a rating. It really helps to drive new audiences to the show. Thanks again and until next time.