How Meditation Transforms Your Life – A Zen Priest’s Story

In this episode, I speak with Ven. Trueman Taylor, a Zen priest, who shares his journey from personal crisis to lifelong commitment to Zen practice. We also break down what Zen really is, how meditation works, the benefits, and how it can help navigate change, suffering, and finding meaning... and seeing the world as it really is, not how we want it to be.

What You’ll Learn:

•  What it’s like to live as a Zen priest
•  The truth about enlightenment and meditation
•  How to overcome emotional struggles through practice
•  Practical steps to start your own meditation journey

Resources Mentioned:

•  Three Pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau
•  Rochester Zen Center
•  Montreal & Toronto Zen Centers 
• How to sit in zazen

Social Media:

• After Peter Pan Podcast: 
  • Facebook
  • Instagram
  • LinkedIn
  • YouTube
• Ven. Trueman Taylor

Chapters

• 0:00 Hook & Intro
• 1:19 How Zen Found Me
• 8:10 Life as a Zen Priest
• 15:24 Meditation & Transformation
• 19:37 Overcoming Anxiety & Letting Go
• 27:03 What is Enlightenment?
• 33:16 Dropping the Ego
• 42:40 Handling Thoughts & Emotions
• 50:17 Finding Purpose Through Zen
• 1:05:30 Tying Meaning to Meditation
• 1:10:51 How to Start Meditating
• 1:13:50 Outro

Transcript

Pat Tenneriello (00:00)
many listeners probably have never heard from a Zen priest. So.

Trueman Taylor (00:03)
Hmm

Pat Tenneriello (00:05)
you become a Zen priest?

Trueman Taylor (00:07)
actually originally from Canada. I grew up in Montreal and also I went to school in Ottawa and

Yeah, I just got really interested in Zen because I was just reading a lot in my early 20s and I was like really searching. And so I was reading like Graham Greene. I was just reading a lot of novels, not so much religion, but just like novels. And then I just came across this word Zen and I just became really intrigued by that, especially JD Sounders. Did you ever read Catcher in the Rye or?

Anyway, so I got interested in Zen. So the very first book I picked up was Three Pillars of Zen, which I know you know, which is written by the founder of the Rochester Zen Center. Yeah, exactly. And what's so great about that book is that especially the last half of the book or last third of the book, it talks about these experiences that people have, these enlightenment experiences they have, especially in sesshin, these long meditation retreats that we do.

Pat Tenneriello (00:35)
No.

That's what brought me to Zen 2.

Trueman Taylor (01:02)
So that was one, that was the carrot. mean when I saw that and when I read that I'm like I want to start practicing. And it took me a little while to, you when I talk about practice of course it always means meditation in Zen. I'm gonna, and same thing with sitting. When I say sitting it means the zazen meditation posture that we do. Which is by the way all described as you know in Three Pillars of Zen. Like that's the other great thing about that book is it just like, you know when Roshi Kaplow wrote it in Japan.

That's where he was training. He was there for like 13 years of his life He never thought that Zen would take off the way it did in America and in Canada and So he was just really writing a practical guide on how to do Zazen Like how to do, you know the different postures that we do there was like it was really a how-to manual because he didn't think there'd be teachers in America, which there's a lot of teachers now, there's all different traditions now

but anyway, so I Just I had a personal crisis in my life. I was obsessed on what I want to do with my life There's pressure from my family and just the outside forces of the you got to figure out what you're gonna do for living Like what kind of job are you gonna have? So I had this personal existential crisis

And my parents' marriage dissolved and it was all happening at the same time. My high school sweetheart finally dumped me because it wasn't working out. And my brother was going through a life crisis as well. So it was at that point where it's like, all right, I'm going to start sitting. Like, I'm going to start meditating because I have a feeling this is going to help. So that was when I had this personal crisis with my family and myself.

That was when I like I made the commitment to start sitting even if it was just 10 minutes a day, like just do it every day. And so I started meditating. I started to really kind of get more stabilized and centered. And in the meantime, you know, I was going to university, I was getting some degrees and I was just basically pretty much doing this on my own. My first two years of practice was actually at the Montreal Zen Center.

So that was that was great to sit with others And then I did two more years. I got a master's in library information science and that was in London, Ontario but my I had been meditating like an hour a day every day pretty much I went to my first workshop At the Rochester Zen Center, which is not far, you know, it's literally a clock cross from Toronto

on the other side of Lake Ontario. So I started going there and I felt really deep affinity with my teacher Roshi Bodin and they also have, you know, we're kind of considered a semi monastic training environment. People can live and work there full time. And I just decided after I finished my masters, I was just going to try that, you know? So I...

did my first seven day meditation retreat. I'd just finished school and I actually missed my last day of school to do this seven day retreat. And then I was already telling Roshi, like I really want to come for training full time being on staff, what we call. And he said, yeah, pack your bags, come on down and we'll see how it works out. So I went back to Canada, packed all my bags, my few things that I needed.

and just moved to Rochester, yeah, so that was in 1997. in terms of becoming a priest, you know, I was training there. I mentioned the Rochester Zen Center. We have this kind of training program where you can meditate and basically you're there full time. You're living there, you're being fed, got to, you know, you have a room and you just fall, you kind of sign on the dotted line. I'm going to do all of the sittings. So

all the sittings and work there. there's a schedule, pretty intense schedule of meditation in the mornings and some evenings, and then work there during the day. So the people work in different departments like the kitchen, like I'm in the kitchen right now, I'm the head cook in the kitchen. I'm feeding like 10 to 15 people every day that are training there.

Yeah, people work in the office, you know, it's just like it's like a temple. It's like a an active living breathing meditating temple that people can come and train at and Yeah, so once I got there year after year at a certain point I just realized this this is my life. This is what I want to do and so at our center you can become a priest you get ordained

Basically the idea of being a priest is being a service for others and working at a Dharma center, the Zen center, and just doing this full time. Like I don't have a job on the outside. This is my job, is being a priest. you just kind of try and live your life as simply as possible. You know, we keep our hair short.

Part of being a priest the uniform is you're wearing black or blue The meditation robe so people we meditate with robes That's always optional so there are brown rows, but as a priest I have a blue robe and one of the things too is you take on a new name So the name I chose for myself was Trueman. So my original name is Christopher

But then I, you know, once I got ordained, then I became Trueman and everyone calls me Trueman. And I'll always remember, and I already made this warning to my mom who came to my ordination. It was great. So did my father. And my mom had this worried brow face. I'm going to have to start calling it Trueman. I'm like, no, you have to call me Trueman. I'm Christopher. You that's you gave me that name, but just within the community, what we call the Sangha Buddhist community, everyone calls me Trueman.

I'll just mention one one last thing Becoming a priest is like it's no small feat in the terms of like this is a lifetime commitment I'm gonna be doing this for the rest of my life You know, you don't just do it for a couple years and then just do something else like and that was a liberating thing about me about me and becoming ordained is that I realized All right. I have no choice now. This is what I'm doing. I'm committed to this. I'm committed to change you mentioned change earlier

Pat Tenneriello (06:31)
Please.

Trueman Taylor (06:55)
I'm committing to navigating all the changes in the world and the changes in myself and I just keep working on myself and being a better service to others. That's really the key thing about becoming a priest.

Pat Tenneriello (07:10)
Personally, in my growing up story, I had a lot of difficulty with commitment. And you talk about a life commitment to something. And obviously you worked up to that because when you, the way you described, you finished your masters and you went, you kind of tried it out. And then at some point, something, you know,

Trueman Taylor (07:16)
Mmm.

Pat Tenneriello (07:29)
it clicked and you decided to make a life commitment. we also talk on the podcast I've had guests on where it's a lot of pressure to pick one thing and stick with it. And so a lot of people that have come on the podcast will talk about how, you could try something and like, if it doesn't work out, then you just go and try something different. Right. And so that transition from trying it to then committing to it for life. Could you talk to me a little bit about the

the period between the first decision, which is not forever, and then maybe the second one, and like how much time went by between trying it and then making that commitment? And what sort of, what went through your mind to like flip the switch? I'm, okay, I'm ready for this.

Trueman Taylor (08:10)
Yeah. So yeah, you just mentioned the mind. you know, Zen is really about, it's this mind body practice that we do and we're meditating every day ideally. And you're just, settling in the mind. You're just, you're starting to like first notice what's going on in the mind, which a lot of people don't know that our mind is just constantly like churning these thoughts and

feelings coming up and just, it's more of the thoughts you just, it just goes on and on and on and on is what, know, in Buddhism called the monkey mind, right? And so once you start to notice and your mind starts to settle, so yeah, for me, I kind of, once I got there, I kind of knew that this is what I really wanted to do, but I was like, it's like you say, you just try it out. But the key with Zazen is cause it can be hard. They're, you know,

The roadblocks keep coming and coming and coming. That's why I feel it's so important to meditate with a community. mean, sit on your own, yes, but to sit with others and you know, Zen is a mentor-based practice. So it's good to have like a teacher. And I always tell this every single time. This is what appealed to me so much about Zen is that I always like telling people, people.

There's nothing I can give you there's nothing Roshi or a sensei or a teacher can give you that you don't already have It's really up to you to uncover it to do the practice do it every day See what's there and just realize it for yourself And then the teachers just there to like guide you not to give you any theory Not to like tell you this what you know, this is how things are. I mean they say how things are

But you have to realize that for yourself. And that's why we do this through the meditation. We realize the Dharma through the meditation. And so, you know, it's just kind of like a progressive thing. You know, I had a certain kind of like obstacle. like, I said, I'm not gonna become a priest until like, I'm like really, really get deep into my practice. But then after a certain point, I just realized that's ridiculous.

this is what I want to do. You know, this is what I need to do. I need to become a priest. And so that's when I approached my teacher and yeah, Roshi from the very get-go like was really supportive. says, yeah, you're ready. You can get ordained. so, yeah, so usually the requirement to kind of like the guideline we always used to have was like, you have to be five years on staff. And then after that, you can become a priest. We've kind of moderated that now to two years on staff because two years,

at a training center meditating every day. It grounds you and then you can at a certain point if and we have several priests now, which is great. I used to be the only one. It was a little lonely for a while for me. It was just me and Roshi, but we've got a lot of priests now. So yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (10:59)
Okay, I didn't realize that.

Okay. And, you also talked about, three pillars of Zen, book of the founder of the Rochester Zen Center where you are. And I remember the part of the book that really stuck out to me is similar to what you shared is that those stories of enlightenment from regular everyday people, in some cases who had gone to their first sesshin their first kind of in, call it like an extents extensive, you know, days or week long,

Trueman Taylor (11:07)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (11:30)
meditation retreat, and, they achieve enlightenment. And I always thought this idea of enlightenment was like so far out there. It so like, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, hard to believe it exists. But when I read that book, it just became so tangible and, and, and practical and possible. Yeah. Yeah.

Trueman Taylor (11:48)
Concrete.

Pat Tenneriello (11:51)
So as a priest, like what does a typical day look like for you?

Trueman Taylor (11:56)
All right, well we always start with the meditation. every morning, yeah, I'll just maybe just describe a day. So wake up at the center is at 5.15 in the morning. So you get up, brush your teeth, get ready, and then you hit the meditation hall, what we call the zendo. And so we start sitting at, I'm sorry, actually wake up, we've changed it to 5.30 now. So 5.30 is wake up. You have to be in the meditation hall, the zendo by...

555 and so basically we sit we meditate from 6 a.m. To 7 a.m. It's one hour around but there's a bell at the halfway point for change of posture and then And then so yeah, we meditate from 6 to 7 and then at 7 o'clock. There's a traditional Zen chanting Which is about 10 to 15 minutes long

So and then so that ends at 7 15 and then so after that there's like breakfast. It's our break breakfast eight o'clock. We have a work meeting And then we get to work and so from eight o'clock to 12 30 we work There's a tea break in between then we have lunch and some of our lunches are formal which is we eat in silence There's like a chanting ceremony at the beginning. We do a little bit of chanting and eat in silence

And then from 12 30 to we have lunch at 12 30 and then break And then 130 we resume work from 130 to 330 and then after that we're off But then some evenings we do have sittings From seven to nine o'clock seven pm to nine pm and those are like monday night Tuesday night is a little shorter. It's it's seven to uh 8 30

And then Thursday night, seven to nine. We used to sit Friday night, seven to nine, but that's changed right now. We're not doing that right now. I hope someday we'll get back to that. But so we're basically sitting doing Zazen six mornings a week and three evenings a week. And then Monday is kind of like our day off, you know, works. Our weekends kind of like Sunday afternoon and Monday.

And then on top of this, so that's a regular daily schedule. And then of course, as you know, we have these sesshins, these meditation retreats, and we do six, seven day sesshins a week. So six of those, there's seven day sesshins a year. then we do like, right now we're doing three two day sesshins, these weekend retreats.

And I mean, it's worth talking about sesshin a little bit. know, Roshi Kaplow the author of Three Pillars of Zen, our founder, talks a lot about sesshin. So it's just really intensive. You're basically sitting like meditating 10 hours a day. Wake ups at like 4, 10 in the morning, and then we end at nine. So it's basically four blocks of sitting, as you know, throughout the day. are usually the blocks of meditation like two hours.

throughout the day and there's a work period and break, of course break and there's chanting and exercise period. But yeah, we just, we're doing a lot of meditation every day and that really settles the mind, especially in day five, six and seven, that's when things can really cook, you know, and, and transformation and change really starts to occur. It can happen at the beginning of sesshin, but the longer you sit, the more change occurs and

The more you sit, the more changes occur. So that's why we do so many sessions every year.

Pat Tenneriello (15:24)
Can you, that part where you say you really start to cook and transformation occurs for someone who has never sat and that's probably a good amount of our listeners. like, you go a little deeper into what that means? Like what, what could they expect if they were to take up this practice?

Trueman Taylor (15:42)
Yeah, so I always tell people, know, when you start to do Zazen, start to manage, we say this every single time at our introductory workshops, we have like six of them every year. I always say, just start modestly. if you're going to start trying, if you think this is for you and you want to try it, just do 10 minutes a day, but do it every day, 10 minutes. And then as you know, even after a couple of weeks, you just start to notice the benefits. You know, your mind might be a little more quiet.

You might become more present. You might notice things a little better because your thoughts are starting to recede a little bit and you're starting to get more into your body. You become more relaxed, obviously. As time goes on, I mean that applies to every kind of meditation practice. And then you just start gradually working your way up to like 20 minutes a day, but to do it every day because that's when the faith starts to kick in. Like you're like, okay.

I think there's something about this that's working, you know? And so you just build yourself up to, and you know, not everybody does sesshin, not everybody has to, it's just the daily practice is really the key. But the next step for lot of people is doing these sesshins know, usually people start with two days and we used to do four days sesshins, we're not doing those right now, but the seven day, that's really the powerful. You have like,

You know 40 to 50 people sitting together and believe it or not that does make a difference sitting with others and it's just kind of Just talking about your my own personal experiences time goes on You know, the first couple days are really rough. You're tired a lot. Your mind is really active You're dealing with pain because These postures the really an important part of Zazen is you don't move when you're sitting

Right for these 30 35 minute rounds. So you're not you can't move Now i'm talking, you know, obviously there's the micro adjustments here. I'm getting to zazen posture You know if I notice my head is leaning forward then yeah, I adjust it that's fine You know, you want to have a nice relaxed straight posture for zazen, but none of this you can't do this You can't look around that's just not

That's not going to cut it in Zazen because the mind body mind, you know, you can't tease apart body and mind there. They're not too.

The one and so if you're distracted and you're looking around You're not going to get into deeper state of concentration. It's really hard. Let's put it that way So that's why we really emphasize the no moving So as time goes on in this these meditation retreats sesshin which means it's a Japanese word means unifying mind As time goes on you're just you're just starting to notice more your thoughts, but you're not Grasping you're not you become more likely to not

grasp at the thoughts and you're just getting more more settled and you just have more energy because you're not so caught up in your thoughts and You just as time goes on with the support of your own Zazen and others You're just like getting deeper deeper deeper into and then you're just you're just your mind has become stiller and as a result of that you start seeing You start seeing the way things actually are not how you want them to be

It's really key. So much of our lives is filtered through this bifurcating mind that we have. We have these filters of thoughts and emotions that get in the way. It's the clinging to it. It's not that we have thoughts. Thoughts are not bad. They're not good, they're not bad. The part that is kind of bad is that we cling to our thoughts. We get stuck on these thoughts. It can kind of become obsessive. We're all kind of obsessive in a way.

clinging to our thoughts. So through the Zazen meditation, as time goes on, your mind just...

just get more and more settled into your body and less and less caught up here. And that's when things can really change.

Pat Tenneriello (19:37)
That's really helpful. for describing that. Please.

Trueman Taylor (19:40)
One last thing Pat interrupt

so it's not just about the meditation being on the mat, know and by the way, as you know, we face a wall, you know some schools they Sit facing out facing each other but in our school we sit facing a wall and it's just cut down in distractions But the big thing about Zazen is that you bring this out into your daily life, you know It's not just about gazing at your navel Through the meditation which we're not doing that

But it's to bring it out in your into your daily life and the more you do Zazen on a regular basis the easier it gets to just be present So whatever you're doing we always tell people like if you're just sweeping the floor you just sweep the floor, know You notice but you're just sweeping the floor not thinking about what you have to do next or about the fucked up political situation A lot of us are in none of that, you know, you notice it

you just get back to sweeping the floor or scrubbing a pot or typing on a computer. You're just doing that and not, you know, being separated by thinking about other things. You're just doing whatever you're doing.

And the more you do zazen on a regular basis, the easier that gets, but it's really hard. It's really hard to do this like moving zazen. But we just keep trying. We just keep doing. And that's what goes back to commitment. know, it's like committing yourself to doing this practice every day. Cause you know, in the long run, it's going to benefit you in so many ways. And just despite the obstacles and like, there are still times sometimes when I'm practicing, I feel impatient.

And I'm wondering if the round's going to end. that's a sign that, okay, I'm not really into my practice. And so just getting back to that, it's always returning, returning, returning.

Pat Tenneriello (21:23)
That consistency is so important. I've, that's something, if I'm honest with myself, I struggle with that. So I'll go through bursts where I'll have months or weeks where I'm really consistent and something will throw me off, sickness, illness, family, whatever work. And then once I'm thrown off, it takes me weeks to get back into it. And those are weeks that I've lost. so, you know, everyday life, it just gets in the way. How do you, how do you keep that consistency?

Trueman Taylor (21:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So I struggle with that once in a while, especially on vacation and this sabbatical that I I'm almost done with, but I was on, you know, I sometimes you just can't you'll like miss a day because you're you got to get up early and go travel. But what I found really helpful, John Sensei said mentioned this long time ago and it really stuck with me. So if there's a day that I can't sit

I don't have time. All right, I'm going to sit five minutes. That's it. Five, 10 minutes. That's it. And you know what? Just doing that kind of really, I never regret doing that. So, yeah. So if, you know, cause again, this is kind of like, it can be challenging. This practice can be really challenging. It's not meant for everyone.

And there are a lot of other different meditation traditions that are totally legit I just wish everyone had some kind of meditation practice because it really can make a change really positive change in one's life So it doesn't have to be Zen. It could be something else. But Zen is what I know. This is this is my path and So even just doing five ten minutes a day makes a difference and it can really help and it's just yes I consistently now, you know

my experience with that, I struggle with that early on, you know, I'd take like a week off or as time goes on, if you're practicing every day, it gets a little easier to close that gap when you're not sitting. So like, for instance, if you're not sitting for like three or four weeks, you get back on the mat. as time goes on, if you keep sitting, you know, then you're closing that gap until you reach a point where, all right, I have to do this every day. I need to do this every day.

Pat Tenneriello (23:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trueman Taylor (23:30)
The hard part,

you I noticed this for myself the first couple of years like if I stopped sitting for like a week or two I Didn't really notice the change, you know, I didn't really notice that I wasn't sitting but it was only when I got back on the mat that was when oh my god, I can't believe I stopped sitting know, because even that just having a you know Settling the mind that first round after not sitting for a couple days. I kind of really notice, you know

Pat Tenneriello (23:57)
How important is the time, the consistency of when you sit on the mat and practice?

Trueman Taylor (24:04)
it works differently for different people like I'm a very I'm very much a morning person That's how my body mind like I'm an early morning person And so I love to sit first thing in the morning, you know brush my teeth and I go hit the mat Which is not always possible. But you know, I just found out, know, one of the teachers at her center Dara sensei She was an academic for a very long time and she kind of got out of that racket and she was kind of tired of it and

I found out just recently that the time that she sat was not in the mornings It was like she get home from school. She was teaching at a university She get back home and she would sit for like 30 or 45 minutes before dinner and then have dinner So that was her daily practice So the traditional really the traditional traditional times are in the mornings in the evenings

And some people sit in the mornings, others sit at night. They prefer to do that. it just, you can fit it in your schedule, I know some people that would sit during their lunch break

Pat Tenneriello (25:04)
And you mentioned has been your path, but there are many paths that one can choose and Zen isn't for everyone. I know you probably haven't looked into every form of meditation, but how would you, when someone, if someone were to ask you what's the difference between Zen and other forms of meditation, how do you typically answer that?

Trueman Taylor (25:25)
Yeah Zen is really about this one-pointed practice of concentration of the mind. So I'll just give you an example you know when we start off we always put a person on counting the inhalations and exhalations from one to ten. So you breathe in one and you breathe out two. Obviously you're not vocalizing it you're you know

your mind you're just but it allows you to the counting of the inhalations and exhalations are great because it allows you to hold on to something to really focus on the counting you just put all of your attention on the counting from one to ten and that allows you to start noticing what's going on in the mind you start seeing the thoughts and you get lost in your thoughts you get pulled away up bring it back to one you know

So it's a concentration practice and then there are other practices after that. The only practice I can really speak of, because I've read a little bit about, is the mindfulness practice, which is more, my understanding of it is more like you're labeling your thoughts. You're noticing your thoughts and you're labeling your thoughts. That's all I can really speak of. Zen is the only practice I've ever really done.

Pat Tenneriello (26:40)
Mm-hmm.

Trueman Taylor (26:41)
But you know

all these practices I don't want to say they all lead to yeah, you know like all religions Buddhism has all these various Schools, but they're all leading to the same, know, there's that saying you live in in Rome You know all paths lead to Rome, you know, it's kind of like that in Buddhism, too We're all kind of heading in the same direction

Pat Tenneriello (27:03)
And the end point of those directions, we mentioned the word enlightenment. Someone who doesn't have an idea of what that is, like how do you describe enlightenment?

Trueman Taylor (27:08)
Right.

Can't be described. It can only be experienced. we use different words for our true nature. There's Buddha mind, nature or one mind. basically enlightenment can only be described really as it's just seeing the non-dual nature of reality. So right now the way most of us perceive the world

Is that i'm here you're there. There's this so-called outside world Where really everything is is there is no separation. There's just there's just this, you know So There's just this present moment and There's not there's nothing other than that. There's no past. There's no future. There's just this present moment and

This can be a very gradual understanding that one can have through the meditation. As you practice year after year after year, you start to become less separated because you're not so caught up in your thoughts. You're not separating yourself with your thoughts. And so this enlightenment, which often occur often occurs in sesshin because we're meditating so much and you're seeing a teacher and you're just constantly bringing your attention back.

It's just this deep deep concentration. Use your point where your mind just becomes so still and then through that stillness there can be this what we call an awakening experience, which is this non-dual nature of reality. Everything is empty. We often talk about emptiness. You're seen into the emptiness of all things and phenomenon, just everything. You know, at the beginning of our talk, you talked about change. There is nothing but change in this world.

Pat Tenneriello (28:59)
Thank

Trueman Taylor (29:00)
In Buddhism, we call it impermanence. So it's seen into that impermanence. See, I've already spoken too much about it because it can't be described. It can only really be experienced. And that's where the faith comes in. It's something that's what, going back to Three Pillars of Zen, just read about those enlightenment experiences. It gives you a taste of the possibility of having that through meditation. But it's got to happen. For us, it's

through the meditation. That's the important thing.

Pat Tenneriello (29:30)
so when I first was introduced to Zen, I read a few books. So I was like theorizing. my last book was Three Pillars, but before Three Pillars, I had read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. I had read a few other well-known Zen books and that way I could talk about it. I'm like, this is really cool, but I, yet I hadn't sat on the mat. I hadn't sat.

so one takeaway is when I started sitting, everything changed. It was no longer about reading and learning about it. was just doing it. And, and so the reason I'm bringing this up is that some people may be born and raised a certain religion. Like I was born and raised Catholic. so they might think, well, that's another religion. I.

That's, I can't be a part of that. It's not my religion, so would you agree that it's really a practice?

Trueman Taylor (30:15)
is is so a couple things about that I had the exact same experience you had about you know I read through pillars of Zen a couple other books I was and I read a lot of books by this scholar called DT Suzuki very intellectual process then But yeah, I was talking an awful lot about it But it wasn't until I started doing the practice that things really changed Nothing will change from reading books really in terms of Zen like it's doing the practice So yeah, I had that same exact experience

Zen is not a belief, it's a practice. So I don't care about belief. You can be Catholic, you can be Jewish, you can be an atheist. You we have some people who are atheists that come. Your background doesn't matter

Zen is not about dogma. It's not about proselytizing Yes, we have these workshops Meditation is great but come to the workshop if you think Zen is for you, you know, it's it's yeah if and it's like I said It's not for everyone. I grew up a little bit Catholic, you know, especially in Quebec

French, you know, Roman Catholic culture. And there's a certain amount to the degree of if your family's Catholic, there's a lot of, conditioning. all conditioned certain ways, it's being a Catholic or Jewish or just society in general, just all the inputs and feedback we get from society. And Zen is really about just cutting through all of that.

Seeing what's really real. What is reality? That's the thing that appealed to me again about Zen is like what really is real? You know, what is the ultimate truth or ultimate reality and Zen is a way to get to access that to become that to see into that

only way I'll describe Zen as a religion is you have to have faith you have to have faith that This practice works and to do it. That's it. You know, of course we have the Buddhist party line is like rebirth. There's karma. We don't ask any

people to believe in that, to just do the practice. And then as time goes on, you start to see the changes, you start seeing impermanence, you start seeing your own suffering, the experience, you know, some painful things that you've held onto for a long time because you're looking into the mind. And then the, know, there's three characteristics of Buddhism in general. It's one is suffering, life is suffering, impermanence. That's the second one.

The third one is no self which is kind of the hardest thing to understand really but it's through the zazen doing it every day that These three kind of characteristics of buddhism become more They've become more common sense. But yeah again zen is not about belief.

We do have on Sundays we always start with Zazen and then a teacher will give a taisho which is like a talk on a topic of Zen. you know it is It is kind of we have a temple, so it is a religion but we really don't emphasize that

We always say just do the practice consistently just see what happens

Pat Tenneriello (33:16)
there was a time in my life where I was going through a lot of transformation and I was trying to get my house in order. was trying to like lose certain habits. I knew were holding me back and were unhealthy and sort of, and so on. But I also was like trying to figure out what to aim at, like what was my purpose? And I didn't have an answer to that. So I was just kind of focused on becoming the best version of myself.

And for a while, what that was looking like was I was, I was aiming at enlightenment in the sense of this conversation. that I was ready to become a Zen priest, but in the sense I was committed to sitting and by doing that, it meant going to bed at a reasonable hour. meant not drinking alcohol. Cause I know I'd feel terrible the next morning. It meant not overeating. Cause then I couldn't follow my breath properly. And so it was a commitment to sitting.

which had all these ancillary health benefits and habits that I was trying to align myself have a healthy life. I don't know if that's something that gets discussed a lot in Zen, but I just find there's a lot of ancillary benefits from making that commitment that have nothing to do with quieting the mind, but just all those other things.

Trueman Taylor (34:25)
Yep, absolutely. Yeah, so I always loved the story that I heard from him. He's a senior member. He's in his 80s now. Dwayne Wilder, practicing a long time for at least 50 years. And he loved smoking the pipe. Loved, he loved that pipe. And you know, he's practicing, but he kind of knew he wanted to give it up because of, for obvious health reasons.

And I always remember this, know, he was smoking one time, his piping says, you know what? I'm not going to give this up right now, but I'm going to lose it at some point. And that always stuck with me because, sometimes we're not necessarily ready to give certain things up, but through just the natural organic process of meditating every day, it just becomes a little easier. And then finally at a certain point, and he describes this as a moment of grace just dropped.

just stopped. It work like that for everyone. Like I knew a Zen teacher, very renowned Zen teacher who smoked his entire life. never, he couldn't give up cigarette smoking and unfortunately he died pretty young. He died in his, probably he's around our age or my age, 55, emphysema. So that was unfortunate. So I guess what I'm trying to say about

That is not, it's not an all or nothing thing, you know, you talked about Zen being a major foundation in your life. everything comes out of Zazen.

So as time goes on and it just requires like just not being hard on yourself, just being patient,

I mean, I still drink once or I'll have a beer. mean, I was like a heavy drinker when I lived in Montreal, my early 20s before I practice. was yeah, and I just caused all kind of harmful actions and behavior and I just kind of really you're not in your mind when you're drunk. so I'll have a beer that's

Pat Tenneriello (36:05)
It's a party city.

Trueman Taylor (36:16)
That's about it. If I have two beers, then I really start noticing it starts dulling the mind. And so I just stick with one beer once in a while.

Pat Tenneriello (36:25)
talked about suffering earlier. To me, suffering, understanding that life is suffering helps with accepting that, like no matter what decisions, no matter how rich or poor I am, successful or unsuccessful, like I'm going to suffer. And so for me, that, was a really powerful concept. When I talk about suffering with people,

They, some people they think it's like, it's really negative, man. Like stop talking about that.

Trueman Taylor (36:53)
yeah, I mean I had that same experience too I always go back to the the Four Noble Truths what you know when the the Buddha had his great supreme enlightenment awakening one of his first

Discourses in a park in India, northern India, he proclaimed the Four Noble Truths. So the first noble truth is life is suffering or unsatisfactory. That's another way of putting it. And then the second noble truth is that it's through our egoistic, you know, through our ego, it's the separation of self and other. It's through ego attachments that we suffer. It's because of that, because of our attachments.

Clinging to things, you know So that's the second No, but then the third one is there's a way out So there's a way out of this suffering. So that's the key. That's that's the that's the non Negative part of it is that there's a way out and then the fourth noble truth he describes The eightfold path basically, but in Zen we just put this eightfold path, which I won't even list them people can find them online but basically

Zen it's all through the Zen meditation. That's how we liberate ourselves and liberate others That's the key is we're not just doing this for our own liberation. We're doing it to liberate others as well So just like a small example because I brought up drinking and how I cause suffering to not only to myself but to others is by you know by ceasing in that kind of

damaging habit of just drinking and just being wild like just stop doing that I'm I'm causing less harm to myself and less harm to others that's how I always like to describe you know there's these 10 precepts and I'll I won't list them but I always like to describe you know people kind of confuse the 10 precepts with the 10 commandments except the 10 commandments is handed down by God which we don't believe in we don't believe in a God

If we talk in terms of beliefs, but you know that this the ten precepts basically describes an enlightened life on and I always like to mention it's not don't look at it from a moral perspective look at it as How do I cause the least amount amount of harm to myself and to others? Living this enlightened life and so there's these ten precepts, I'll just give an example

I resolve not to kill, but to cherish all life. That's the first one. So we follow these precepts as best we can by doing the meditation every day, knowing that we're gonna screw up, but not beating ourselves up on it. I'm like, all right, I can do better and just keep working on refining the mind, the body mind. And as time goes on, we do cause less harm to others and ourselves.

Pat Tenneriello (39:43)
You talked about how this idea of separation, I think you use another word, but the idea that I look at you Trueman and I see a separate being and that's how we kind of see the world. like there's a world in front of me and then there's me and I'm separate from that. And you talked about how that's a delusion. That's not the way it is, but that's the way, that's the common perception of it.

Can you give any other examples of common misperceptions or common ways that we see the world that is just not how it is?

Trueman Taylor (40:11)
we always like to describe like the absolute and the relative.

So when I look at this mug, it's kind of a little too big. Let's use this pen. So yeah, this is a pen. But in terms of Zen practice, there's the labeling of that is a pen. But Zen is really, with the practice, really getting beyond that and seeing things as they are. No labels and just.

Just this one pointed focus on looking at the pen. And it's like that with everything. the more you practice, the more you just start seeing things as they are and not like labeling them, not thinking that's good, not that's bad. John Sensei has a story he loves telling, which is, know, this is just as he's starting to get in Zen practice when in the late sixties.

And he was with a friend in Vermont, I think and they were coming across this Like all this fungus mushroom at the base of a tree and John's instant reaction at the time is like that's disgusting And his friend said well, no actually it's your mind that thinks it's disgusting and that kind of really turned things for him You know, it's that again going back to that judgment filter of like good and bad right and wrong

We get that those are all dualistic notions. It's cut Zen It's really about getting beyond notions and beliefs good and bad and again this pencil just Seeing it as it is whole and complete just this you know and And yet at the same time it's all one, you know, but the all oneness is just that experience of just getting beyond all thoughts concepts feelings everything just

cutting through that and just seeing the non-dual nature reality. I wrote down a couple other things about... misconceptions in Zen Buddhism. One is like it's not a philosophy. In a way, you can say it's not a religion. It's because we don't hold on to any particular beliefs. It is a practice. And maybe the last thing I'll say is that, you know, there's a lot of commercialization of Zen. You see that word posted everywhere.

That's not Zen, know, it's that's just commercial to make it sound cool and groovy. And the idea that Zen is just kind of like this chill state of mind, that's, that's not it at all. You know, I mean, you do become more, any meditation you do, of course you become more relaxed. Your blood pressure can go down. But it's so much more than that.

Pat Tenneriello (42:40)
when I'm sitting on the mat and my thoughts arise, right. One thing I, I listened to recently a podcast and they were talking about how emotions arise. And I have witnessed that in other, when I've been sitting with other people, that emotions can arise. can hear someone crying, for example, that that's occurred

If someone is naturally an anxiety prone and they're sitting, then the emotion that would arise would be.

anxiety. Is that correct to think that like, like these emotions come and go, or do you think about it more as thoughts?

Trueman Taylor (43:12)
yeah, emotion is slightly different in the sense that it's more in the body, down here in the body, you know? so the key to all of this is to not cling. So let's use anxiety as an example. So you're meditating and all of a sudden you get anxious. So the key to in Zen practice, you're not trying to analyze, figure out why am I anxious?

just experience the anxiety, just get back to say counting in the breath because anxiety comes up a lot for people when they start. So that's why counting the breath is such a great tool. You just get back to one, don't have to figure out why you're anxious. And as time goes on, if you do this over and over and over again, that anxiety that you experience that you can experience around, it gets shorter and shorter and shorter. And it comes back up. It still comes up. I'm sure.

with my teacher or really senior students myself, you know, it still comes up once in a while, but the key is the key. It's always like, you notice you're feeling anxious. You just get back to the practice, just always like bringing it back to centering, centering, centering, uh, and that anxiety will pass. And a lot of times I know why I'm feeling anxious, but a lot of times I don't.

It doesn't matter. It's not about the analyzing of it. It's just returning to the practice It's all about that's what we describe is not attachment, you know that not clinging to your thoughts not attaching to your thoughts the same thing with your feelings not attaching because when you attach yourself to your feelings You're not letting go. You're it just keeps it

it's still prevalent. mean, it will pass eventually, obviously, but yeah, the sooner you get back to concentrating the mind, the quicker it will go. that's another misconception actually about Zen is that we don't become robots through practice. No, we still feel, but I always liked this image of,

use anger as an example. after you know years and years of practice Anger just becomes more like a snowflake hitting a hot pavement and melting you would experience the anger. You're angry Hopefully you don't lash out to the person or to yourself

You just experience the anger. It's in the body. You experience it and then you move on. It's it's letting go. Where a lot of people what they end up doing to get angry and they hold on to that anger and that could go on for days and days and years, centuries.

Pat Tenneriello (45:41)
Yeah, right. And likewise, we tend to want to cling to the good, you talked about earlier in the conversation, joy, happiness, and try and push away those bad things. So someone who's practiced for a very long time, you, so it's these emotions, they're not labeled good or bad. They come in, they get experienced and then they pass. Is that correct?

Trueman Taylor (45:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's absolutely I really struggled with my emotions because I repressed everything before I came to practice I I thought I had didn't have a problem with anger. That's not true. I just suppressed all of my anger and It really came out in really nasty ways passive aggressive and so forth So sesshin's, know these meditation retreats

I always like to describe our emotions in sesshin can be like this, you know, like this really wild curve. But as time goes on...

And then as time goes on.

and then you know you it's not that you're not feeling anything the emotions arise but they're just like a blip and you just keep getting deeper and deeper same thing with thoughts you know it's still in the mind that's the same thing

Pat Tenneriello (46:54)
Some people listening to that might like, so when, when you say that I think of someone who's content, I think of contentment, but someone might say that sounds really boring.

Trueman Taylor (47:05)
it's not that you're not feeling anything, but you're just feeling it and you just move on, you know, you're not holding on to it. again, it's this impermanence things happen, like eventually my partner is going to die or I'm going to die.

because I'm in a relationship, I mean, I'm going to experience pain. That's just part of being human. But Zen practice, can you just experience that pain and you're just, you're just with it. You're not suppressing it, you know, but you're not clinging to it. Those are the two extremes is trying to suppress everything and then clean things. I always like to use those two extremes. And so yeah, you know, there's countless stories and stories like

This really advanced student of this great Zen Master, Hakuen. It was a grandmother and she was crying. She was very senior student. She was crying because she'd just lost her granddaughter. And then someone in the village came by and says, you should be ashamed of yourself. You've practiced all these years and yet you're crying. And she just snapped back at her and says, you fool. Of course I'm not going cry.

Why wouldn't I cry because I just lost my granddaughter? You know, it's so painful. I guess that person had an idea that Zen practitioners, don't feel anything. It's just kind of like this flat line. You don't get dislodged so much by your feelings and emotions and your thoughts. You just...

You don't get sidetracked so much by them. And so again, it's going back to this present moment about, you know, through the meditation, when you're just feeling sad, when you've just experienced sadness, you're just feeling that you're not trying to suppress it. You're not clinging to it. just, just, or pain, that hurt, you know, that's it. No, get away from that hurt. You just experienced that pain and you're not like trying to suppress the pain. You're just being with it.

Pat Tenneriello (48:27)
Okay.

In a previous conversation we've had, you've talked about the, there were like sufferings, like universal sufferings that we all have. one was anger, think greed and there were others.

Trueman Taylor (49:05)
Green anger

and delusion. Yeah, those are the three ones green anger and illusion that we all were all susceptible to we were all Have we're all have our different versions of greed anger and delusion and so Yeah, the Zazen is this process of uprooting that of uprooting greed anger and delusion

Pat Tenneriello (49:26)
Where does ego fit in that?

Trueman Taylor (49:29)
Ego is like greed, anger, delusion. Ego can be a little deceptive as a word because there's also, people might associate it with self-esteem, know. Of course, when you're growing up, you need to have a sense of self as a teenager, especially growing up. But then when you become a full adult, then you gotta drop all that, you know.

remember we mentioned, we talked about these four noble truths as ego is basically the craving, the grasping on. That's the best way to describe it. It's just the clinging. So it manifests itself to greed, anger, and delusion.

Pat Tenneriello (50:02)
Okay.

can relate to.

Trueman Taylor (50:07)
And

then delusion is, of course, the separation of self and other, thinking that we're alone apart from this world. When we're not, we are the world. This is it right here.

Pat Tenneriello (50:17)
I can relate to what you said about anger and how you thought you weren't an angry person, just that you were, you were burying that anger. have been situations where I didn't get angry, but then I stewed on it for months and that it's kept processing in my head and

Trueman Taylor (50:32)
Right.

Pat Tenneriello (50:33)
It's not that I ever like raged, but then I'm like, well, that must be anger that's just going through my head. Like I just can't process it because I'm burying it.

Trueman Taylor (50:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah sure and I wish you point in my practice where this anger was I starting this Just it was just a natural progression of I was start starting to cling less to my thoughts and then the anger which is coming up and You know a lot of things through, know Zen is all about opening up the mind and seeing what's there And so a lot of painful experiences from my childhood say

started coming up and yeah, I was always conditioned not to be angry, be this good, good Canadian boy, you know, and be polite and sure, politeness is great, but the suppression of the anger is we're all human. all experience anger and you know, again, it's going back to not suppressing it and not clinging to it. And so I was really suppressing that anger. So, you know, one way that can help, I don't want to get into too

much because it's not Zen but I did a couple I did like three years of pretty intense therapy and that really helped me this kind of therapy that basically breaks down your defense mechanisms to experience all this anger and rage that I held on to and it was like in the body it was a very physical this is not like analytical talky talk therapy which I'm sure can be helpful for some people for me the big thing was anger

And so by experiencing, finally experiencing all this rage and anger that I held, cause we do hold things in the body. It always comes back again to like this mind and body are not separate. So by holding onto that and finally through this intensive therapy, I was able to kind of, yeah, experiencing it and then move on. And as a result of that, the thing that surprised me the most is that I forgave my parents for

parents that I didn't have that I wanted them to be, you know, and, Zen practice was a great, again, it's that foundation allowed me to persevere through the really hard work of therapy and it, and it helped my Zen practice too. Like I'm, I allow me to let go more quickly. So it kind of like, kind of really loosen up these psychic knots in a way.

Pat Tenneriello (52:49)
Mm-hmm.

Trueman Taylor (52:56)
So that really helped.

Pat Tenneriello (52:57)
Thanks for sharing that. Was there any, was there reluctance from your family when you made that decision to become a Zen priest? How was it received from your family?

Trueman Taylor (53:04)
Well, by

then they were fine with it, but the time that they really freaked out is when I made the decision to move to Rochester and move on staff. know, like I did eight years of university and then the next thing you know, I'm like, I'm not getting a job. I've gone to the Zen Center. I'm not making any money. Like living at the Zen Center, you have a roof over your head, you're fed every day, but you get a small stipend.

I think it's like maybe $200 a month now. I mean, I get paid more because I've been there for so long, but you don't make a lot of money. So my parents and my brother, they just could not understand why I was doing this. But you know, as time went on, when they saw the changes in me and that I was happy and this is what I needed to do. So by the time I got ordained, which was like, you see, I got there in 97 and I got ordained in 2008. So that was 11 years later.

I mean, they were all, they all came. My dad's really proud of me for getting ordained. And I mean, he's not a practitioner or anything, but yeah, they were just both really happy for me.

Pat Tenneriello (54:06)
other thing I've experienced while sitting Trueman is I get a lot of creative thoughts come through my head. Like it's like a, almost like a download from like some place. And sometimes they're really great creative thoughts and ideas and I don't know where they came from. And I want to like, write them down and remember them. And I know I shouldn't cling to thought cause I

That's the whole purpose of sitting is to pass through you and let it go. But at the same time, I feel like it could be a really powerful tool for creativity. you experienced something similar and what do you think of that?

Trueman Taylor (54:41)
Well, you know what I would recommend and a lot of people do this or some people do this like just have a note pad of paper and a pencil and just write down quickly and go back to your Zazen. Now what you can drop it, you know, you have this insight write it down get back to the sitting so that you can drop it.

that inevitably happens you just as you're emptying the mind you have insight Where does it come from? It kind of reminds me, know I kind of got back into bob dylan recently because of that that movie that came out. Yeah, so I was watching an interview with bob dylan. You know, he just was

Incredibly creative. It's written so many incredible songs and you know The interviewer asked them word it where does that come from? He's like, I don't know, you know That that can't be answered. But but I mean Zazen or meditation, you know, David Lynch She's one of my favorite filmmakers. I love his movies and he practiced Transcendental meditation And in one particular movie

He was really he was really grasping. He just didn't know how to get it all together and Through his transcendental men through his meditating one time. It just all came in and he just knew how to do that film It was a Mulholland Drive So yeah, I mean creative people a meditation is great for for creative people Painters in a way are meditators or poets poets of what poets are doing is they're observing the so-called outside world there

Pat Tenneriello (55:56)
Okay.

Hmm. Hmm.

Trueman Taylor (56:10)
They're observing, they're silencing their minds, paying attention. Same thing with painting. And painting is a kind of practice really. Yeah. Yeah, because you have to concentrate. A lot of painters, that's how they describe, just, my mom's a painter. She's retired and that's what she does. She paints and she gets in, know, what she calls the zone, you know, where she's just not thinking and time just flies by.

Pat Tenneriello (56:34)
would liken that being in the zone to some form of meditation, like even runners might experience that or someone who just has a hobby or a sport that they just, get into that place and it's like, they lose their sense of self essentially.

Trueman Taylor (56:46)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very famous story. grew kind of grew up on him. This guy, Boris Becker, Roshi, my teacher often would talk about this because he loves tennis and watching tennis. And there's this very famous game that Boris Becker played. He's this German player. And he was just playing like, talk about non-separation, you know, he's just playing. He could not miss a shot for like a long period of time.

And so obviously inevitably the journalist asking him that question, you know, it says like, you know, those two or three, four sets or whatever, how long it is, I don't know, tennis that well, says, but you just like, you were unstoppable. You were not missing a shot. Like what were you thinking? And Boris Becker replied, I wasn't thinking at all. No, he doesn't. I don't think he had a meditation practice, but he was aware enough to know that he didn't have a thought in the mind. He was just completely one with the plane.

Pat Tenneriello (57:41)
don't know where I heard this or read this. It might've been in one of the discussions we've had during Seshine, but the idea that wisdom comes from sitting.

do you think about wisdom? Where do you think wisdom comes from?

Trueman Taylor (57:55)
it's through the meditation once you settle the mind You just start seeing the way things really are and you you don't get so caught up into grasping everything That's that's the wisdom It's just this non separation so even when you're in a conflict with someone I used to avoid conflicts

I used to just avoid them period. I can't even talk about them sometimes, you know But through the practice when you're having difficult If you're having friction, it's not that the friction is not there but you can sit with it you can be with it and not push it away I don't know if that answers your question, but the wisdom just comes from the years of practice and emptying the mind

No reading is great, but the Zen is not about knowledge. It's not about Accumulating knowledge. It's not that at all It's about emptying the mind and just seeing the world as it is Not how we want it to be just how the world is Now am I a reader? Yeah, I read books Especially during the sabbatical. I'm trying to read a lot more books on Buddhism and Zen just the kind of get that doctrinal aspect

more firm in my body. people think that Zen is an anti-intellectual thing, but it's not. I mean, the intellect is a great tool. We need to think, we need to plan, we need to figure things out.

But just so much of our time is spent just on these useless thoughts dreaming about this or that or about the future or holding on to the past. All of that is just not, it's not productive. And so that I keep bringing up emptying the mind. So by stealing the mind, emptying mind, that's where true wisdom will arise. And it's not an all or nothing thing. just, as time goes on, you just become more and more,

Pat Tenneriello (59:40)
Hmm.

Trueman Taylor (59:45)
more and empty. I was going to say wise, but more and more empty and you, yeah, you just accept things more.

Pat Tenneriello (59:53)
Someone like you who lives the life that you do, the way we've had this conversation, you've described it and you see the world today. see, you know, I think about technology and this addiction to our phones, for example, like technology is a phenomenal tool. It's a powerful tool and it's I mean, it's transformed the world in a lot of positive ways, but at the same time, it's really this concept of presence. It's really pulled us away from being present.

struggle with my phone a lot, especially now that I have a young son and you know, he, kind of pulls me back into the present in a very vocal way when when I'm on my phone. And that's been a lesson in itself. how do you see the world today and the contrast that with the type of life you've chosen to live? Like what, what do you see there? Does it worry you?

Trueman Taylor (1:00:26)
Hahaha!

phone, a cell phone. But if I have this phone while I'm sitting on the toilet, that's not a good idea. You know, this is how I'll explain it. Like it's the multitasking in our lives. And so I guess in a way, looking on your phone, if you're doing something else or you're thinking about,

That's the multi like this get away from the multitasking. So it's the same thing with if you're reading you just read if you're looking on your phone You're just looking on your phone to see what you need and but that's it. Yeah, a lot of people struggle with the phone. I struggle with the phone sometimes

like this is a great thought generator for sure

So if I'm like on my computer say or I'm watching television, I love movies. So when I'm watching a movie, I'll make sure my phone's not around anywhere. Like it's in my pocket. So I just can just focus on the film. People, I, the whole thing about tweeting and watching a movie, it's just you, cause you're splitting your attention. So it's that again, it's that getting away from the multitasking, just like whatever you're doing, you just do that. If you're at a concert,

Just listen to the music. Just be one with it.

Pat Tenneriello (1:01:47)
one thing I've also noticed when I've done extensive sitting, like coming home from a sesshin.

home and I'm in such, I feel so playful and everything is like funny. Like I just find my sense of humor. I'm lighter. I'm laughing at things that I wouldn't normally laugh at. My corners of my mouth just kind of naturally like do this. And I used to smoke pot. so like every, and that was one of the reasons I like smoking pot was I just found everything was funny. And so I find that it's kind of like that. So when I come back from an extended, extensive sitting and

getting on my hands and knees and playing with my son and like seeing the world like in this playful way. Where do you think that comes from? Like, why is that that's extensive sitting can cause that sort of thing?

Trueman Taylor (1:02:35)
You just you're less caught up in your thoughts You're just again. It's seeing things as they are. I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about The last Dharma talk I was giving This was on a Sunday. I gave a Dharma talk about practice and At a certain point I was at this desk working on it and then I was struggling with it a little bit All right. I need a break. So I just got up

Not thinking about it. just got up and I went to play with my cat. Love playing with my cat. So I just playing with her for a little bit. That was like a great break. I was like one with that experience. It can be so much easier with your kids. I'm sure animals like just playing with them, being one with them. And then I wasn't thinking about my talk at all, but I just kind of gave me that space and then all right, I get back to it. And then it just wasn't a problem anymore.

the promise of practice. You know, I always remember the story too. I was always struck by this, this girlfriend that I was dating for a while. I just started practicing and we were at this cabin and I was so kind of sure that the cabin was in that direction and it wasn't. And I said, no, no, it's this way. It's this way. And I led us astray. It was getting dark. She finally got me out of it and says, it's this way. We finally got to the cabin.

All right, so weeks later, she was relaying the story to someone, like kind of making fun of the situation and my previous self, here's this no self coming in, my previous self had I not been meditated, had she recounted that, had I not practiced, I would have been really pissed. Cause it's kind of like, no, you know, I just would have been upset. Cause she was kind of making fun of me, but I wasn't, I was just laughing with her cause it was ridiculous. You know, I was.

Pat Tenneriello (1:04:15)
Mm-hmm.

Trueman Taylor (1:04:24)
Insisting that I was this way and it wasn't so that's the ego really coming in It's like it's in this way. And then finally she said no, no, no, it's this one. I finally relented, you know it was that experience of laughing at my own Foolishness my own insistence that no, it's this way. It's got to be this way and it wasn't you know But it was the laughing at that that again. It was that all right, know, there's something to this practice Like I'm not taking myself so seriously

Yeah, that definitely happens after sesshin After sesshin, it's like, yeah, you're on kind of on a cloud nine really for a couple of days. You're just much more open and everything just is bright and luminous. And you're just kind of, yeah, you're more one with everything.

Pat Tenneriello (1:05:13)
was wondering if we could try and tie the practice to finding a sense of meaning and purpose. Do you have an opinion on that? have you seen people at the center that have tried to tie their practice to finding a sense of meaning in life?

Trueman Taylor (1:05:30)
I know some people, they have a certain kind of job, they don't like their job or career. And so I've known quite a few people, like they're dissatisfied with the kind of work that they're doing.

But through the zazen, slowly but surely, they come to realization, I gotta stop doing this. And they'll go back to school and become a nurse. This is what I really wanna do. It's just the zazen itself, I I guess another way of describing it, when I first got into zen, I was kinda really obsessed with the meaning of life. But that's just a totally intellectual thing. What is the meaning of life?

There is no meaning in life. It's just it's being present, you know, just this present moment clarifying the mind the purpose is to just the single-minded attention in the present moment and just being whoever you're with you're just being with that person and not separate yourself thinking about other things or

fretting or worrying and That's it, you know, it's just it's just this that's all there is and You know, there's careers and jobs and all of that is important, but the Zazen itself will help you clarify Yeah, it helps clarify what you really need to do with your life

That's how I'd put it. It can help. Clarity is new. Right.

Pat Tenneriello (1:06:50)
Clarity is huge. A lot of people go through life without clarity.

I can relate to, uh, going through life and you know, sometimes you, you, you raise a certain way where you put others needs ahead of your own, or you don't take the time to check in and think like, what, what is it that I want out of life or what, what, what is it, what, what's important to me? And, and so that clarity, you know, dedicating time to yourself. And so sitting,

is carving out time to just quiet the mind. And through that, certainly clarity will inevitably So I think that that makes a lot of sense.

Trueman Taylor (1:07:27)
Yeah, I was really struck last time I spoke to my teacher Roshi, you know, he just, he just said it off handedly, but he's like, he sits an hour, at least an hour every day in the morning. And he's like, that's not negotiable, non-negotiable. Like he just, he's, he, you know, gets up in the morning and he does it.

because he needs to do that. Need sounds like kind of like a dependency, but it's not. It's just, I need to do this practice for the rest of my life. I mean, who knows? I might drop out someday. I suspect highly that I won't. Not at this stage. Again, it's going back to priesthood and a lifetime commitment. But yeah.

It all comes down to clarifying your mind and you realize the time goes on what you really need to do with your life, what your purpose is, what your calling may be.

There's this great science writer. His name is ed young I really like what he had to say. he's really into birding now He he moved to oakland and I guess he's in the wooded area and he's really gotten into birding

That's what he describes it as becoming more whole as a result of like paying attention to the natural world, especially through birding and that helps him

navigate this world that we're in right now, know, this kind of like where everything is, it seems like just everything is falling apart in this world. And people might think that him going out birding might be a trivial thing, but it's not. It allows them to become more whole as a result of it, kind like what meditation does. But for Zazen, I would argue is much, much deeper. He says he can't meditate.

So in a way his meditation is burning. But it does make him more home to become more kind of connected to his community.

Pat Tenneriello (1:09:13)
this podcast is all about growing up. Everyone has their own growing up story. You've shared a little bit of yours. When I say growing up, like, what does that mean to you to grow up?

Trueman Taylor (1:09:24)
I it just means owning your own shit and becoming a more responsive, emotionally stable, centered person. I mean, I did bring up therapy earlier and Zen can certainly help with that, but just...

Yeah, it comes back to realizing how not to cause yourself the least amount of harm to yourself and to others. It really comes down to

Pat Tenneriello (1:09:50)
For those who are listening, curious about taking a first step Zen practice, what would that first step look like? Any suggestions for them?

Trueman Taylor (1:10:02)
obviously I'll say the Rochester Zen Center come to a workshop here, but there's the Montreal Zen Center and there's also the Toronto Zen Center, which I ended up staying there for a while because I was having problems with my green card. It was coming through and I had to go back to Canada. So I stayed at the Toronto Zen Center. So yeah, I'll just mention those three places because they're within our lineage.

So just go to a workshop on Zen and see where that takes you if you're interested.

Pat Tenneriello (1:10:29)
Great. I can link down to the description of the episode to those centers. And if someone didn't necessarily want to go to a center, if they just wanted to try a practice, like you said, start with five minutes, start with 10 minutes, like really quickly, could you just kind of walk through what the steps would be? If someone said, okay, tomorrow I'm going to do a five minute first, what should they do?

Trueman Taylor (1:10:51)
Yeah, okay. you you could even just sit in a chair. I mean, we sit in these, well, I'll just mention three pillars of Zen, because they actually have images too on how we sit. So that can really help. let's just use sitting in a chair.

So sitting in a chair, your hips are about, I actually measured it out. Your hips are three feet away from the wall. So find a kind of a blank surface. And then we have this hand posture. You can try that or like this too. I sometimes do this, but yeah, just have your hands on your lap. You want to have a straight back, but you also want your spine, the natural curvature in your spine.

basically you want to have your chin tucked in and your eyes open for sure, half open. And just like put all of your attention on the counting of the counting inhalations and exhalations. Don't try and control the breathing. Just breathe naturally through the nose. If you can inhale and exhale through the nose, we keep our mouth closed,

and just when you're inhaling just go one exhaling

Three Four so you're not vocalizing and I'm just doing it to explain but you're just doing on your mind and just put all of your energy and attention attention That's the key attention on the counting and if you make it to ten in other words, you don't get distracted with thoughts and you lose track of the counting if you make it to ten, then you go back to one and If you lose the counting

And you're trying to figure out where did I stop counting don't worry about just go right back to one just bring it back to one So that's that's a preliminary practice and there are others after But that's a good that's that's good good way to start

Pat Tenneriello (1:12:46)
Okay, well think that's really clear. I can put those steps in the description as well if anyone wants to. It's pretty simple, but I'll put them down there too.

Trueman Taylor (1:12:52)
Yeah,

you know, and just to mention, because you mentioned two books, so kind of like the two classics was The Three Pillars of Zen from Rochester Zen Center. But then the other one you mentioned was Shinru Suzuki's book called Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. That's kind of like that's a classic book. It's from the San Francisco Zen Center. Yeah, those are kind of like my experience with people. Those are the two books that they've read that kind of got them to start practicing.

mean, there are a lot of holes too, but...

Pat Tenneriello (1:13:21)
Okay.

We'll link down to the books too. I hope this will pique some curiosity for listeners or maybe help some listeners who are already practicing to want to commit and deepen their practice. I really enjoyed the conversation, Trueman. I really thank you for taking the time to be with us today. It was really a pleasure to hear your story.

Trueman Taylor (1:13:44)
good. Yeah, good.

Yeah, yeah, that's great connecting with you again.

yeah, yeah, great. pleasure.