How I Overcame Peter Pan Syndrome & Built a Real Life

To celebrate our  10th episode milestone, I invited my sister Tina Tenneriello, journalist and communications specialist, to guest host and take the guest role. We explore my journey from a commitment-phobic, pleasure-seeking lifestyle to one of purpose, integrity, and personal growth. We talk about leaving "Neverland"—the state of avoiding responsibility and chasing short-term gratification—and step into a life of intention. From confronting entrenched habits to embracing therapy, fatherhood, mindfulness, and a healthier relationship with wealth, this episode is a candid look at transformation, healing, and what it means to grow up.  

What You’ll Learn 

• How the Peter Pan Syndrome keeps people stuck in cycles of avoidance
•  The psychological impact of short-term gratification vs. long-term fulfillment
•  How childhood trauma and past experiences shape adult relationships and career choices
•  The role of therapy and group healing in personal transformation
•  How modern dating culture and technology can reinforce commitment issues
•  The benefits of mindfulness and meditation for emotional growth and self-discipline
•  How embracing responsibility and integrity leads to a more meaningful life
•  How to evolve your relationship with money—from chasing wealth to living with dignity

Resources Mentioned

• "He who has a why can survive any how" - Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl – A book that changed my perspective on suffering and purpose 
• "He had suddenly felt that wealth, and power, and life - all that people arrange and preserve with such care - all this, if it is worth anything, is only so because of the pleasure with which one can abandon it all" - War & Peace by Leo Tolstoy

Social Media:

• After Peter Pan Podcast: 
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  • YouTube
• Tina Tenneriello:
  • LinkedIn

Chapters

• 0:00 Hook & Intro
• 1:44 The Meaning Behind 'After Peter Pan'
• 3:40 Living the Peter Pan Lifestyle
• 7:39 Turning Points and Realizations
• 10:28 The Journey of Psychotherapy
• 16:03 Childhood Trauma and Its Impact
• 18:52 Overcoming Fear of Commitment
• 24:29 The Impact of Loneliness on Relationships
• 30:45 Navigating Modern Dating Culture
• 33:26 Living with Integrity
• 46:42 The Transformative Power of Fatherhood
• 49:53 The Evolution of Money and Richness
• 1:05:03 Growing Up: A Journey Beyond Self
• 1:14:41 Reflections on Parenting and Legacy
• 1:15:36 Outro

Transcript

Pat Tenneriello (00:03)
was a deep sense of loneliness.

In the pit of my stomach, in my chest, it was like a hole. And I was trying to fill that hole with that activity. And of course I wasn't in a place to take any of those dates seriously. So they were just, occupying time.

Tina (00:21)

Welcome to the After Peter Pan podcast, where we explore what it means to grow up and find purpose.

Today, we’re doing things a little differently.

My name is Tina Tenneriello, and I am Pat's little sister.

This is the podcast's 10th episode, and we thought this milestone would be a great opportunity to mix things up!

Pat has invited me to be the guest host for this episode, and we're turning the tables on him—I’ll be interviewing him.

In our conversation, you'll get to know him on a deeper level and hear the story behind why he created this podcast.

We hope you enjoy the show!

Pat Tenneriello (00:58)
Before I answer your first question, I just wanted to start by saying I couldn't think of someone who's better qualified to interview you. mean, you've had an amazing career in journalism,

So thank you for agreeing to do this, Tina. Appreciate it.

Tina (01:14)
wow.

Pat Tenneriello (01:15)
You know, you're practically a Montreal household name, you know, if they could get your name right.

Tina (01:20)
Yeah, I don't know about

that, but yeah, no, mean, yes, thank you. That's a nice compliment. Yeah. One time somebody called this station and they said, can I speak to Cheena Torello, the reporter in the streets?

Pat Tenneriello (01:24)
What do they call you? China? China Terello?

That's

Tina (01:39)
I leave

Cheena Torello. It's stuck, I must say. It's quite the name.

the first thing that I wanted to ask you was really get into the name, you know, after Peter Pan. So tell me, tell me about that name.

Pat Tenneriello (01:54)
Peter Pan is a boy who doesn't want to grow up. He lives in Neverland. He plays with the Lost Boys, his crew.

He gets chased around by a Tinkerbell who also lives in Neverland. and then there's Captain Hook, who's the villain and who's Captain Hook. Well, he's a guy who's, who's got a hook for, for a hand because he's older and life will knock you down and life will get

take pieces and chunks from you. And who does Captain Hook get chased by? An alligator with a clock in his belly. And what's the clock represent? time Time just continues to march on. And so all this, for me, Peter Pan represents the time in my life where I was I was living that YOLO lifestyle. You only live once.

I wasn't thinking about tomorrow. was trying to maximize the moment. that doesn't sound all that bad except that as time marches on I found myself questioning my day-to-day actions and what I actually wanted to get out of life.

I wanted to ultimately settle down and have children.

And so I realized that my day-to-day actions were not in alignment with what I really wanted out of life.

And it was really, really hard to get out of that Peter Pan lifestyle.

at times I felt alone and at times I felt like I, I didn't have the strength to continue. And I did group therapy and group therapy,

I kind of put me in a room with other like-minded individuals, some of them at least. And then I realized other people are also going through this or wanting to go through this. so, that's what gave me the idea for the podcast and the name after Peter Pan came from, my personal growth story, which I relate to Peter Pan syndrome.

Tina (03:40)
describe what that lifestyle looked like before you made it on the other side, what was kind of the...

the challenges that you could face living that way.

Pat Tenneriello (03:52)
So fear of commitment in my, in my intimate relationships, I had fallen into a pattern of enablement with all these dating apps and this, yeah, this fast dating lifestyle, I guess is one way to put it. And that's okay. Like some people go through a period of their life where they need that. for me, it had, it had run its course and

I didn't know how to get out of it because I had gotten into these really entrenched routines and, going through therapy, realized part of it was a feeling of then the coping mechanism of that was this sort of serial dating or this, manic dating that I went through in period. So one fear of commitment, also fear of commitment professionally

Although I stayed with companies for a number of years, there was always a feeling that I wanted to be somewhere else. And so this inability to fully commit to what it is that I was doing

And then this idea of short-term gratification versus delayed gratification for long-term goals. So I was always someone who was financially motivated. I think that came from a place of ego.

sometimes I made decisions that increased my financial standing in the short term at the detriment of what I could have learned or the experience I could have gained a more long-term vision for my professional career.

I would boil it down to those two, fear commitment, short-term gratification with money and with other, you know, typical pleasures from life that could also be, my relationship with drugs and alcohol. You know, from all outward perspectives.

I very successful career. I've worked in sales for 15 years and climbed the ladder in the sense I became a sales leader. was managing people. was working for fast growing startups in exciting technology spaces. career had taken me to exciting cities. In that sense, I was very successful. But

when you were at a startup, it's a lot of, a lot of young people that are early in their career. So the social setting is, know, you're, going out and you're socializing a lot, which had, you know, brought drinking and partying along with it. know, most days of the week, there was some sort of going out and social activity that lended itself to, I was drinking too much

I never, never dived into heavy drugs, thankfully, you know, marijuana being so accepted today, I had been introduced to pot. Like when I moved to New York, when I first started my career, I in sales and I didn't know anything about sales. was kind of, it was kind of a high stress, high pressure first job. and so outside of work, I had a colleague who liked to smoke and.

and then I got into it and that kind of stuck with me for far too long. And so my relationship with alcohol and pot is also something that I tied with that kind of that Peter Pan pleasure seeking short-term gratification scene that I was in. So those were kind of the main ones.

Tina (06:56)
think that a lot of what you're describing is probably something that a lot of people can relate to that could be like a phase in life, right? Like I'm thinking a lot of times in our 20s, I could relate to a lot of what you're saying in drugs and alcohol or the serial dating kind of thing, a hard time.

to commit, but what would you say is the moment, if there was a moment where you felt that maybe this was lasting a little bit too long, that you were like over this and you wanted to grow to the next step? Like, was there a turning point for you?

Pat Tenneriello (07:39)
Yeah, I would say there was a turning point and there were moments. I had spent about five years living Philadelphia, working at a startup we were growing and we were hiring a lot of younger college grads, so there were people in the company that were older and then there was a group of people that were younger and

That social scene, I realized that when I was socializing,

people were like a decade younger than me wasn't a big deal to me. But then I remember, one time my friend came to visit me and he is my age. He came with his wife remember I took them to a party and it was all these people that were, you know, a decade or so younger and, I didn't think twice of it. And so we had a good time. And then at the end, my friend said to them, he's like, all right, the grownups are leaving. You guys can have the real fun now.

And that stuck with me. thought that was hilarious, but I thought, geez, I guess like some truth to that. so that was a moment that stuck with me. There are also moments in the morning when I would wake up where I had been out the night before. just woke up, my head was still on the pillow and I was feeling regret. was feeling guilt and.

shame and I was like, this, this lifestyle just isn't, isn't suiting me anymore. And so there were kind of morning moments like that where I didn't feel very good about myself. And then the real moment I think was in, uh, in 2019, Um, I got laid off from my job and that was, that was a real shock for me.

my natural inclination was to pack a bag and go traveling because I always love traveling. love backpacking and the lifestyle of a backpacker, which is a lot more of that short-term pleasure fun. So exactly. I found the strength to take it to pause and ask myself.

Tina (09:27)
Yeah, Peter Pan lifestyle.

Pat Tenneriello (09:34)
What can I, what can I do with this opportunity? knew that there were some things, there was some baggage that I needed to work on that I needed to face. asked a few people very close to me, family members, like, what do you think I should do?

they all had the same response, which was, this opportunity is kind of a once in a lifetime. It's not every day that you get this kind of free time. So go and work on yourself and then, and then you could always go and travel to those places after. I decided, okay, I'm going to do this.

And for me, that's when the journey of leaving that Peter Pan lifestyle, wanting to having the desire to started. then I started my search for psychotherapy and so on.

Tina (10:12)
Yeah, so maybe we can get into that, that psychotherapy journey. So can you describe to us what that work kind of looked like and how it helped you, you know, get, get on the other side.

Pat Tenneriello (10:28)
So I had done a little bit of therapy in my past when our parents split up, I was 13. and, so, you know, shortly after maybe 14 or 15, I had done some counseling and that was really helpful. So my experience was a positive one

And I was looking for a very specific type of psychotherapy, which was childhood sexual abuse trauma. I had buried that trauma all of my life practically. it wasn't until.

you brought it up to me that I, realized, okay, this actually happened to me. you you, you read stories in the paper in the news about how people will take 30 years to come out and realize that they were a victim. And you're like, well, why didn't you speak sooner? understand those people. I totally understand why people can go an entire lifetime or the

you know, and not realize that they're a victim because nobody wants to be seen as a victim and, Um, we bury it and

Tina (11:25)
Yeah, you get into like

survivor, you do what you have to do to survive. So I think that, yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that my sharing with you led to you, you know, having that realization and seeking help yourself because I had a similar experience of talking to, I think I've told you this before, but talking to one of our aunts who shared her experience.

with sexual abuse and that was the moment for me of like, oh, wait a minute, like this happened to me too. So yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's one of the reasons why as difficult as having those types of conversations a realization that they're important conversations to have because you never know like who you're helping without even knowing just by bringing it in the forefront and not like hiding it.

Pat Tenneriello (12:14)
.

Yeah, I'll never it was around your wedding. It was right, it was before. were at dad's and he had the convertible out. had just washed it and he threw me the keys. said, take your sister for a ride. And that was pretty rare because that was like his, his sixth child. So we hopped in the car and took a drive and I didn't really know where to go. So we started driving. I took us through the old neighborhood and for some reason we pulled up to dad's old house and then we went to mom and dad's old house.

And, uh, and we got out and, and then you started talking. I don't remember how, what triggered it. then, and then you told me, and then my reaction was, Oh, that happened to me too. And now you realize, you know, why the theme of me too, like those words, like that's, those were the exact words that came to my mind. And then we stopped the car and, you know, we hugged and cried. And so that, that moment will always stay with me.

Tina (12:57)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (13:11)
So that moment was a few years before, several years before actually. so fast forward to when I got laid off, was the work I wanted to do. So I started Googling abuse, childhood sexual abuse for men. And so I interviewed a few therapists, but luckily I stumbled on this program in Ottawa, which is very rare. There are only a few dedicated programs for men for sexual abuse.

And it happened to be in Ottawa, our city. It's called Men in Healing. What I loved about the program was that they were experts And it was a structured program with a start, a middle and an end. I liked that because I thought like,

I had all this, I had this travel that I wanted to get to, but also because like, liked the idea of working through a phased kind of process and coming out the other side. And so for them, it was a three phased process. Phase one was. I can't remember what they call it now. Like, think they just called it phase one. And it was like an intense weekend where new people like me, we got together. I think we were four or five. We worked through a workbook and we learned all the basics around childhood trauma.

was really enlightening and it was a group therapy.

Which was nice because it makes you feel like you're not alone. are other people who share their stories. And then phase two, starts after that, which is a weekly group therapy with other men who have been in the program longer than you have. That was very helpful. And then I also did that one-on-one therapy at the same time. I did both because the one-on-one therapy allowed me to go deep into my specific trauma.

Tina (14:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (14:48)
And make space for, for myself. Whereas the group therapy give gave me breath. It allowed me to feel that I wasn't alone, that there were others. helped with shame and with guilt. once I was done with phase two, phase two ends with what's called, your testimony. And so the testimony is when you, you essentially come to group and it's your time to tell your story.

And then that starts phase three and phase three is kind of reintegrating into, everyday life and, what, what you want your life to look like next. And for me, phase three was about, deepening my spirituality.

And also my love for my partner at the was dating my wife at that time.

Tina (15:30)
It sounds like an incredible program and honestly one that I wish was more available of Ottawa as well because really is unique. I'm curious, as you were revisiting your childhood and this trauma through this were there any realizations for you of,

that having an impact on the Peter Pan lifestyle that you had known, that you were trying to out of.

Pat Tenneriello (16:03)
there were. Now it's, it's important to say that it's, it's really hard to differentiate like the line between where your trauma ends and where kind of the other baggage that you have in your life starts. Right. So it's, it's gray and you can't, I can't say for certain that because of this trauma, I behaved in this way because, you know, it's not that, it's not that simple, but.

There's some kind of strong indications and some things that kind of are pretty clear to me.

so one is coping mechanisms, the definition of healing, at least in the program was opening up time and space for yourself, make space with how you feel. And when you're not doing that, that's what the program called survival mode. And in survival mode, you're just thinking of the here and now.

Tina (16:47)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (16:56)
And you're just thinking, I don't feel good. What do I need in this moment to feel better, to feel good? And that's where a lot of those lifestyles that I shared earlier came into play, right? That's where smoking a joint is a great way to feel nothing or feel a lot better for a little bit of time. And then, and then probably feel worse after, but, and, and the same goes with, you know, maybe over drinking or with, dating.

three different people at the same time and feeling really good about myself. Right. So I would say those coping mechanisms tie into me being in survival mode as a, as a result of my trauma. the other one is

from high school onward, like I was always very active in dating and I always kind of took on, I took on this persona of being like a player, being like, of dating a lot of.

And I kind of liked that. and I think that part of that may have been from like an over, like a coping mechanism to bury some of that shame of the trauma itself

Tina (17:58)
Hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (18:01)
And then on, on the commitment side of things, I think that's less about my trauma and probably more about our parents separation. I was at a pretty tender age, 12, 13 years old. And, we have wonderful parents and

they were married for 16, 17 years. And I always, I used to say to myself, like, if, they weren't able to make it work, like I don't have a chance in hell. Right. And, and so I think the, commitment issues and the fear, yeah, the fear of commitment and marriage that came more from our parents separation than, the trauma.

Tina (18:39)
Okay. So one thing I wanted to get into, you know, is that, that fear of commitment that you described, because of course now you have a wife that we love very much.

think that it was a question of timing the work that you had done on yourself that when you met your wife, you were ready to overcome that fear or do you think it was her? Do you think it was a combination of everything? Like what helped you specifically overcome that and

able to really let go and fall in love and get married and start building your life with someone.

Pat Tenneriello (19:19)
used to reflect on that question a lot. And I used to ask people, especially friends who had taken the plunge, I used to ask them, is it you who was ready to meet the person or was it the right person who came along in your life and kind of changed you or made you realize you were ready for that commitment?

And the answer I used to get you'll know when you know, like how did you, you'll know when you know was the answer, which is not that helpful. But once you, once you go through it yourself, you kind of realize you like that makes sense. You'll know when you know, when you have that feeling, you just have knowing, and I'm sure you had that strong feeling with Francois. but.

For me, the answer is very clear.

I was ready. It was right time, right place, right circumstance. And then the right person came along. If I didn't have those three set up correctly first, my wife would have, you know, honestly, truthfully would have probably been someone I would have dated and, and it would have ended like the countless others. And I would have, you know, we would have gone our separate ways that that is the honest to God truth. And, you know, she knows that.

And I know that, but I'm thankful, I'm grateful that I did that work, but probably she probably would have not even been interested in me if I hadn't done that work, because she wouldn't have interested in the Pat that I was at that point. So we probably would have never even had any sort of story because she was a serious person. She is a serious person.

I did that work and, that healing journey was, was creating that space and that time to realize that one of my goals in life was to start a family. How am I going to get that if I'm on four different dating apps going on three dates in one evening, sometimes like back to back to back?

Tina (21:14)
Wow.

Pat Tenneriello (21:15)
Like at its extreme, that's what it was like sometimes. And it took a while to realize why I was doing that. It wasn't that I was doing that every day, but I would, you know, sometimes I would just in a flurry of activity, I would go on like three different dating. I'm just, just go to town and set up a bunch of dates. And when I stopped and I, in therapy, I thought about what that was about. it was a deep sense of loneliness.

In the pit of my stomach, in my chest, it was like a hole. And I was trying to fill that hole with that activity. And of course I wasn't in a place to take any of those dates seriously. So they were just, just occupying time. But once I had done the work and I realized what I wanted and I connected my everyday actions to that objective.

That's when that alignment, it opened my circumstances to meet my wife made myself attractive to someone like her who was serious. You know, at that point I was still a work in progress. I'm still a work in progress today, but I was an early work in progress relationship with drugs and alcohol at that point.

It wasn't exactly where I wanted it to be, but it was much better. I was being very intentional in my dates. So I was communicating to them, Hey, this is what I'm looking for. Are you looking for this? in the past, even if I went on a first date with someone, I thought, you know, she's cute, but she's probably not the one. Like I'd continue to pursue her just to, just for the fun of it. Right.

Tina (22:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (22:51)
So I

would, communicated on our very first date with Ema and they were forget it. went, we did this very romantic date. We went to Naples. We were walking along the Lungomare, which is like the, along the water, uh, the Mediterranean. We had had a really nice dinner and we were sitting down by the rocks. And I said to her like, I'm not looking, they call them adventures. Like, like, uh, like something just, just, just for fun. Aventura. So I said, I'm not looking for an Aventura.

Tina (23:16)
I love that.

Pat Tenneriello (23:22)
looking for something serious." And she looked at me and she said, well, that's great, but like, aren't you leaving in a week? so yeah, yeah, yes, but we'll figure that out. Like you need to know, like, this is what I'm looking for. This is where I'm at in my life. And so that signaled everything to her. And from there on, we had our intention and, and then we just, you know, we made it work. It was hard, but we made it work. And I'm so grateful we did. But the other word that comes to mind answering this question is

I started to live a life of integrity. My actions before were not aligned because I wasn't living with my integrity. You know, they were not, I was not a virtuous life As much as I tried to bury my conscience and that voice, like it knocked up against it. And that was where the internal dissonance was too. Like I wasn't proud of myself. I wasn't proud of the person I had become. And so.

Again, to go back to your original question, like it was, was definitely through the work and being at a place where I was ready for it, that the right person came along and I was able to take advantage and fall in love with my wife.

Tina (24:29)
you know, when you described your, sort of peak Peter Pan lifestyle of sometimes three dates in a night and finding out through psychotherapy that it was a void of loneliness that you were trying to fill, were you able to sort of pinpoint where that loneliness was coming from?

think that it's something that could be helpful to people because I think that the fact that you were able to pinpoint that it was loneliness that you were trying to fill, that's very powerful. It's probably something that other people can relate to and that have not had that moment yet of understanding that it's a lonely world out there sometimes.

Pat Tenneriello (24:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So a few things come to mind. I spent my career in the U S at the 10 years, most of my career in the U S living in major cities, very fortunate and grateful for that. But it felt lonely sometimes. My family and my close friends were back home in Canada. Sometimes I would arrive in a city I had never even stepped foot in. San Francisco and I moved to San Francisco, hadn't even been in the state of California and I had my bags on the plane with me and I was moving there.

Tina (25:43)
Wow, it's courageous.

Pat Tenneriello (25:43)
when I moved

to Boston, like again, I didn't know anybody. And so, you know, it was, it was courageous in a sense, but it was also, it was lonely, you know, and I was lucky I'd friends and family come visit me and, and all that. And I made friends, but I felt lonely at times.

I also think that that persona I talked about of like being a player of being a womanizer, it outlived itself. Like I, it had run its course and yet I continued with it because that's all I knew.

maybe eventually realize it's kind of a lonely lifestyle. I think part of it was just the lifestyle of dating and thinking that it was fun, but in reality, it was hurting me.

And I also think this, plays into the dating culture today. we want that like fast connection. It's very easy now. Like there's all these apps at our fingertips. I adopted many of those apps you know, once you're on them and you start using them, you realize you kind of learn how they work. You learn how to get good at them in a way.

And so you meet a lot of people and you go on a lot of dates and,

I think it feeds into that short-term gratification lifestyle. And I think that these apps and this dating culture, it's not healthy. And I think that a lot of people fall into the trap. And I think I kind of fell into that trap.

Tina (27:08)
people listening could probably relate to that. I could definitely relate to it that I had. met my husband Francois before dating apps were a thing. So I never really got into the dating app world, but I did go out a lot. I definitely had my times of just...

going out to clubs and bars way too much and meeting people. Well, Montreal is also like very much a nightlife city, right? So when I moved here, like I definitely had that period where I was just partying way too much. And of course, I think what you said about way you were living that dating lifestyle and the one that I also lived for a period of time.

Pat Tenneriello (27:36)
Yeah, we lived together a few years in Montreal, so I... I know, but...

Tina (27:57)
fits a lot into dating culture now. And, you know, I hope that we're gonna see a change to it because at the end of the day, I don't think it's very meaningful. Like there's no way that you can truly give someone a fair shot or really like give of yourself emotionally, be honest to someone with someone if you're not giving them like really your time. Like at the end of the day, like you need to give time, you need to give respect. And so,

I hope that we're gonna go back to a way of life like for our children, the next generation, where we slow down a little bit with the consumerism and like even consuming like people in a way. Like let's take the time to really appreciate someone and get to know them and not waste each other's time if it's not a good fit.

Pat Tenneriello (28:47)
if you declare your intention upfront with someone, like on a first date or second date, people like the other one might react thinking like you're crazy. This girl's crazy. This guy's too intense, too clingy, you know? But I remember in therapy,

Tina (29:04)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (29:05)
My one-on-one therapy, we were talking about integrity. were talking about intention having my everyday actions and my dating patterns align with what my goal is, what I want. remember my therapist saying, hey, well, what if you only sleep with women that you say, love you to, like that you love? And I thought,

Tina (29:27)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (29:29)
This guy's crazy, man. This guy doesn't know how the world works. Like this guy doesn't know what the dating scene's like out there. Like, I just thought that was so crazy. and so opposite to what I was living at the time. but I, looking back on it now, like that's not such a bad idea. You know, if I make a rule for myself that I only sleep with people that I say I love you to. Probably going to take that person a lot more seriously because

going to be waiting longer. I'm going to be getting to know them better. I'm to be checking in to see how I really truly feel about them. I'm going to be communicating with them directly and honestly. And if the other person reacts and says, this guy's a nut job, this guy's too clingy. They're probably not the right person anyway, but the one who says, I appreciate you for, for being upfront and honest with me. And guess what? Like I'm looking for that too. The way that Ema my wife did on that date in Naples, like.

Tina (30:11)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (30:22)
There's a reason they say like when you aim at something, if you keep aiming, like you'll get it. like you need to set that intentionality, but I understand the feeling of like, people are going to think I'm crazy if I do that. Like the dating scene is, is, is broken. It's messed up. And, know, lately I've been, I've been, gripped by this, this problem that the world is going to be facing soon that I keep hearing about on,

the podcast that I listen to and that is population decline. And people think, well, population decline isn't such a bad thing. You know, we got a lot of humans on this planet and we have a climate problem and so on. So that'll make it easier and so on. But, but people don't realize how big population

Tina (30:55)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (31:02)
decline, how big of a problem it will be in the not too distant future. And people are just are not having kids. like 50 % of women age 30, single, not having kids. And then half of those will go on to not have kids at all. And, and so there's a, there's a problem of involuntary celibacy, like meaning that, you know, we talk about incels for men, but it's also for women because an internal clock there.

Tina (31:17)
So 25 % that's a big number.

Pat Tenneriello (31:29)
And if you don't align your life in the pieces, um, then, and you might miss your window, right? When you're 40 and you're trying to have a kid, I, I, you know, I'm very, I'm very close to this. know the stats. You're only, you only got about a five, 10 % chance of getting pregnant after 40, right? It's pretty low. So, and the reason I'm bringing this up, Tina, is because I think it feeds into this dating culture. I think like a lot of it, it's like, we think it's fun.

Tina (31:47)
you

For sure.

Pat Tenneriello (31:56)
It occupies our time. It's part of our culture, these dating apps. And so when we wake up and realize what we, that it's not, it's not getting us to where we want to be ultimately, it's too late.

Tina (32:05)
It could

be too late. Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree with you. And another thing about these dating apps that speaks to what you said earlier about checking in with yourself and about what you want. I think that the dating apps are also a distraction. They make it easy for us to go through life and not check in and not ask ourselves like, okay, am I living with integrity? Am I living the way that I want to live so that

I could accomplish my dream of having a family. You know what I mean? Like there's, it's true what you say that if we're not doing those check-ins and if we're not making space, doing the work so that we're able to let go of some of those fears that are holding us back, you we're gonna wake up and like you say, you know, the reality is we do have a biological clock and we do kind of have a timeline.

that we have to sort of meet to make some dream specific to having a family come true. I want to talk to you more about integrity because you know, it's something that you've said a few times now that you started living with integrity. So can you describe what that looks like for you?

Pat Tenneriello (33:26)
Living with integrity for me?

aligning myself with that inner voice that helps me with right and wrong.

so I think that's primarily what it is. And the second thing that it is for me is this idea of aiming up.

So having an ideal that I'm aiming towards to always try and improve. There's always room for improvement. So those two things together.

aiming up for me is it's, it's picturing what my ideal is, and then working towards it every day, trying to be just a little bit better than I was the day before.

Acting in a way that I feel proud of myself, that my wife and my son will feel proud of me, and my parents will feel proud of me, my siblings will feel proud of me.

Acting in a way that makes me feel stronger, not weaker. I was in that coping mechanism, survival mode and...

I felt weak when I couldn't, I didn't have control over myself. Like I remember I wanted to change, but I did, I couldn't do it. Like I would wake up with a hangover or I'd wake up having smoked pot the night before and not getting enough sleep and, and say, okay, like, why did I do it again? Like, I feel like there's a cloud in my brain. I'm tired. I don't want to do this anymore.

Tina (34:29)
Mm.

Pat Tenneriello (34:53)
Like I'm going to stop doing this. And then as the day progressed and I started feeling normal again, come nighttime, I do it all over again.

So integrity is.

Is taking responsibility for my actions?

and it's really listening to that inside voice telling me, you're off kilter here. Something's not right. Something needs to change.

Tina (35:19)
For someone listening who might be stuck in that same pattern of wanting to change, not being able to, what do you think is the key, the first step maybe to get out of it? Would you say that it is asking for help?

Pat Tenneriello (35:33)
I would say asking for help is important, but asking for help is really hard when there's shame and guilt that get in the way. You know, me talking about

pot and alcohol, it's, it's, you know, it's, not, it's not everyone who will do that. shame with that and guilt therapy, they call those like the master emotions. Those are like the, two, the two big ones, right. but sharing with someone what helps you work through the shame. And.

Tina (35:48)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (36:03)
Now we're so lucky, like online, if you, if there's any ailment, there's anything that you need to work through. If you go on YouTube, like you'll find a Ted talk, you'll find someone else who has struggled with it and talking about it. it dissipates that shame. And it also it's hard because it makes you feel vulnerable. And in the short term, it can make you feel weaker. But let me tell you the vulnerability is a superpower.

And I learned this from you and Frank, you guys, I said this at your wedding, like you guys, you guys can be vulnerable. And I think that's one of the, one of your strengths in your ability to connect with people. discovered vulnerability going through the men in healing program, because when I was working through the program, I wanted to share, I would share it with people and I was a bit ashamed and guilty to talk about it.

And then what would happen was the person listening would immediately reciprocate that vulnerability either equally or greater than and share something even more vulnerable or more shameful. all of a sudden there was this connectedness with the person I was talking to. know, sometimes when you're socializing, you can feel some anxiety, like in your stomach or some nerves that would immediately disappear. So the

Tina (37:16)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (37:20)
power of vulnerability to feel connected. And I would say that alcohol is a drug that helps people with that connectedness. Like you could feel more connected if you've had a few to drink, like you're less anxious,

Tina (37:31)
can open up a little bit more sometimes.

Pat Tenneriello (37:34)
Yeah. Vulnerability. it's like that. more powerful than that. And so I would say that if you're someone who you can feel that you need to make a change and you don't know where to start and you're trying by yourself and it's not working, you're not alone. So many people are in the exact same place that you are.

Find someone who accepts you for who you are that you could open up to and talk about it. And it's going to pave the way for change. Change is not going to happen right away. You got to have patience. And again, change is one foot forward, two back.

two forward, one back. It's this, it's a work in progress. and writing, journaling, I, talk about this in almost every episode of the podcast, but communicating, like writing down is, is a really good way to get your, to kind of think through things.

process things.

Tina (38:28)
Yeah, do you want to talk to us a little bit more about some of the daily practices

Pat Tenneriello (38:33)
Yeah.

Once I was done with the program and I was not smoking pot anymore and reconnected with my joy of reading it was through reading that I went down the path of meditation in Zazen. It was also through our aunt Helen who opened my mind up to that world and introduced me to it. so reading, I kind of found my own path and my own path ended up being Zen Buddhism.

And so I practice zazen, is meditation in Zen Buddhism. try and do it every single morning, least 30 minutes, ideally for an hour. And then after that, I do some yoga because physically stress and anxiety can find its way in the body and sitting for an hour is not always the best thing for your body. So it's also a good way to, to relax after you've sat in zazen.

an ideal day for me is going to bed early at nine, waking up at five, the world's still asleep. My son's still asleep. My wife's still asleep. And I do my hour of zazen and my, my half an hour of yoga, and I'm ready to take on my day. And then once a week, I like to journal gratitude journal, think about some goals that I'm, that I'm working on and some self love to all right. Some kind of self love affirmations.

That's an ideal world, right? If we're in survival mode, the baby's sick or someone's sick. And of course, you know, my, needs fall back and I put their needs first. And, so, and, I'm proud of that. Like that makes me happy. so it's, it's okay. I give myself space to deviate from that plan. but I want to talk about Zazen like meditation. Meditations come up in many episodes of the podcast, but we don't go very deep.

I'm going to have a Zen priest on one of the episodes. So don't want to get into like the philosophy of Zen Buddhism or meditation. Cause I think this person will do a much better job than I can. but Zazen for a while when I didn't know what my mission was, I made my mission about working on myself and the best sort of aim that I had was what in Zen Buddhism we call enlightenment.

and I won't get into what that means, but that really means is having a very, very rigorous practice to get there. And I noticed that if I committed to my Zen practice, it meant I had to go to bed early. It meant I wasn't drinking alcohol the night before. It means I wasn't overeating because anyone who sits in, in meditation will relate to if you've had a full meal and your stomach's full, it's really hard to follow your breath. It's really to.

Tina (40:51)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (41:03)
I've lost like 20, 25 pounds without even trying just from my meditation practice. And that's because when you sit for 60 minutes in your body, so there are different meditation practices, zazen, your mind is in your body. It's in your lower abdomen. so you're in your body, you feel your body in a way that throughout the day you never take the time

Tina (41:10)
Wow.

Pat Tenneriello (41:30)
too, because you're, up here. And when you're down there, you realize like, I'm full, like I, why am I eating so much? but meditation has been like a, like a life changer for me because there are so many, things that need to change in order for me to have quality practice, like diet, like sleep.

Tina (41:32)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (41:50)
like no alcohol. And then my presence, if I do my practice, I'm so much more present and grounded that day. I'm lighter. I find that I smile more. I laugh more. I'm more childlike and playful with my son. I'm just, I'm just more present. and the other thing is in, in Zen is, know, in life,

Whenever something happens, we always, tend to label that it's a good thing or a bad thing, right? Like you wake up and the sun's out, it's going to be a good day. Or you see the rain, you're like, ah, it's going to be a shitty day. you sit in Zazen, you're like, helps me to just accept that things, the way that they are, they're not good or bad. They just are. And one famous story that

Tina (42:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's true.

Pat Tenneriello (42:37)
Zen story is the story of the Zen farmer. I don't know if you ever heard this, but it's a good example of what I'm saying. So there's a Zen farmer and he plows his fields with a horse. And one day the horse runs away and like the villagers come to him and say, Oh, bad luck, such bad luck. So such misfortune. And he goes, good luck, bad luck. We'll see. So a few weeks go by and the horse comes back and he's got like a whole herd of horses that have followed him.

Tina (42:42)
No, I never heard it.

Pat Tenneriello (43:04)
And so now the farmer has like 10 new horses and the villagers all run over and they say, you know, what good luck, like what fortune amazing. And he's like, good luck, bad luck. We'll see. And so, a month goes by and his, the farmer's son comes to visit him

And then the son starts to tame these horses for the dad, these wild horses that came in and ends up breaking his leg trying to tame one of these horses. The villagers come over and say, good, oh, what bad luck. And he goes, good luck, bad luck, we'll see. And then a war breaks out in the country and the military does conscription and they come to the village to conscript every young man. And they look in and they see the son with his broken leg laying on the bed and they keep walking and they let him go.

Tina (43:33)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (43:49)
Then the villagers come over and they say, what good luck, what fortune you get to keep your son. And of course we know what the farmer answers. Good luck, bad luck. Who knows? And so that's kind of the, a good story to summarize like that, mindset of, of Zen Buddhism is not to slap a label on things and to just accept them from what they are. I think it's not theory. Like I read a lot of books before I actually started to practice.

Tina (43:59)
see.

Pat Tenneriello (44:18)
And it's like virtue signaling, right? Like I would then I'd be able to talk about it with people and I'd say, isn't it cool? And like, it must be so powerful, but I anyone who actually practices will tell you like the real work it's like, it's like, it's on the mat and also in your day to day, when you're not on the mat, just to be mindful and check in with yourself. But, it's a practice.

Tina (44:38)
And did you start with an hour? Because I hear you describing that and it's like, wow, so like, why would, why would you not do that? It sounds like amazing, like a happiness pill. But then also another part of me is like an hour. That sounds really hard. So I don't know how did you start? Did you go from like zero to an hour of the bat?

Pat Tenneriello (44:59)
No, no, no, I didn't. I started with a few minutes and then a few more minutes and a few more minutes. of the books I read was the founder of the, of a Zen center in the, in upstate New York. And then I joined that Zen center and then they do during COVID, did virtual. Sit-ins. And so was able to tune in and their sittings are 30, 35 minutes long, depending. And so I just, in order to

Tina (45:04)
You work your way up.

Pat Tenneriello (45:24)
follow them, I had to get to that level. And then you realize, and then that level comes and goes and you go to another level. like, it's like training for a marathon, I guess. And I've done like silent retreats over many, many days. I've done five days silent retreat where you're meditating, you know, 10, 12 hours a day. And, and it's something you work up to. And for me, it is a function of the time I commit to it, but I know that there are many practices out there.

where it's not so much the amount of time you dedicate to it. Like at the end of the day, every practice lead, they're just roads that lead to the same place and there may be more efficient roads and there may be better roads that people are suited for For me, this works. It works because there's, there's a sort of a discipline in Zen Buddhism that speaks to me and where I'm at. you can certainly do five or 10 minutes and there's these amazing apps.

like Headspace and I think Sam Harris, I don't know if his is Headspace or another one, but there are apps that you can do guided meditations to start where they, you you just, just listen and, and, and just a few minutes a day, you'll notice the difference. And that's enough motivation to hopefully continue with it and want to develop it.

Tina (46:37)
Yeah, it's a rippling effect. I wanna talk to you about fatherhood now.

How would you say fatherhood has changed you?

Pat Tenneriello (46:47)
our job as parents to teach our kids a lot, but I think that at the end of the day, our, teach us just as much, or if not more about ourselves in the world. So of course, fatherhood has been completely beautiful and amazing. And I feel very grateful. I feel very full, full of love and I'll never forget like the first day we came home from the hospital.

And we were laying in bed like in the, in the same room. And I had Ema on one side of me and I had the baby in the crib on the other. And I just, and they were sleeping. I was looking over and just felt like such a rich man. the one of the moments I felt like the most rich that I'd ever felt in my life.

it's given me that feeling of fullness that I, I never had otherwise had. it's just this creature, right? This creature that has so much to learn and it is like, and just watching him grow and change every single day. It's, it's amazing, but, it reminds me just to be present. To put the phone down. going to be two in April. He's really good at letting me know like dad.

They put the, like, yells at me when he wants my attention and yeah, I'm just sure you can relate to that. So I've learned, and I'm reminded to be present, to cherish these moments cause you only get them once and then, and they're gone, to prioritize family, over career. So to realign my priorities,

Tina (47:51)
Give me attention.

yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (48:11)
love, like the love that I have for him, a unique love, right? It's like an unconditional, unique love that I hadn't had before. Of course I love my wife and I love my family, but it's unique with a child.

also I would say.

It's given me strength to push to be the best version of myself. And it's given me strength to, to overcome and make meaningful changes in my life that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to make. And that's because, and I think people know this, it's easier to take care of someone else and to take care of yourself. Like,

Tina (48:49)
Yeah, that's true.

Pat Tenneriello (48:50)
Like if, if, if, if someone does something to your daughter or even to your husband or to, you know, it's easier for you to speak out and defend them than to defend yourself against someone. and so for that reason, given me, given me strength because I want to make him proud and I want to be, I want to be the best version of myself.

And I'm not just living and acting every day for myself, but my actions reflect on my family. reflect on my spouse. They reflect on my son. wouldn't hate to do anything that could affect them negatively.

Tina (49:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I think it gives a whole new meaning to life and also kind of holds up a mirror sometimes to like, some behavior I find kids truly like, their mirror you see in your, they kind of reflect back some good in you and also some, some bad sometimes. So personally, I find it's a good way to check yourself too of like, I need, you know, I need to work on that. That's it.

They could be good little wake up calls for certain things, especially as they talk more and more. I'm like, wow, that sounds like me. Hmm. I could be a little more gentle in my approach sometimes.

Pat Tenneriello (49:53)
It's so true.

That's funny. Yeah. He's starting to talk a lot more, but what comes to mind as you say that is more like our eating habits. and so like whatever he sees us eat, like he immediately wants to eat. Right? So like he saw some chips and now like he's obsessed with chips. He's asking for chips all the time. He calls them Pakipakis. So he's always, you he wakes up and he goes, Pakipaki, Pakipaki.

Tina (50:14)
Yeah.

So

You

love it. I like chips too. Let's talk a little bit about, because you mentioned there the richness that you felt when, that first night when you were home with your son and your wife. Talk to me a little bit about your evolution with your relationship with money, because as your sister growing up, I remember you were always...

the big brother who is so good with money and at saving forgive me if I, correct me if I'm wrong, but you put a high value to money and maybe we're also motivated by money in your career path and having successful sales positions. And obviously with the sales roles too, you're immediately rewarded with commissions.

How would you say that through this work, your relationship with money and your view of richness has evolved?

Pat Tenneriello (51:22)
So I've always been someone who's financially motivated. I've liked earning money. prided myself on earning money and I always saw like the next job that I would accept would always pay more or give me more opportunity for financial gain than the previous one. And sometimes that meant leaving jobs that I loved. know, like I, you and I both worked at the before and after

school programs in our neighborhood. That was so much fun. And we worked summer camps. That was so much fun. And, you know, they paid, but, you know, I didn't pay that much. And then from there I went, took a job that paid a lot more at a bank where I was doing collections, like a collections agency for the bank, basically, you know, repossessing people's cars and foreclosing on their houses, making their, you know, making their lives pretty difficult. Not the same vibe. And yeah, it's, you know, certainly

Tina (52:13)
the same vibe.

Pat Tenneriello (52:17)
So, but I did it because it paid a lot more. And so I was always financially motivated and I always was, was ambitious with my career. Like I wanted to be challenged. You know, I, I got the Holy grail at a university. I got a job with the federal government. know, in Ottawa, that's kind of the Holy grail for a lot of people. And I got that and I'll never forget my first day of work.

When they were kind of showing me around and the guy, as he showed me around, he says, man, you got it made. You got a gold plated pension benefits. Like you're, you're set for life. And I just remember thinking like, what? Like I just spent like 22 years at school and you're talking to me about my, when I'm going to retire. Like, shouldn't I have a life somewhere in between that? And so, like, so I knew the government wasn't for me and, I had a, someone opened the door for me.

Tina (52:55)
Yeah

Pat Tenneriello (53:11)
to have an opportunity in New York at a startup and sales. I never worked in sales. And so I jumped through that door full speed ahead. left the government, took that job and went as far away as I could from kind of the bureaucracy of Ottawa. I And I stayed in sales. I did 15 years of sales almost. And it's been very good to me. I've been very good at it. I think I've developed a lot. There's a lot of things about sales that I love. There's some things I

don't love so much, I love connecting with people. love helping them solve problems, love building genuine relationships. you know, being successful in sales, you can earn a lot of money. Usually the people who are successful in sales are the ones who earn the most in the company, sometimes even more than the CEO. feel like my relationship with money has certainly changed.

I think I've outgrown that mentality. I've come to the realization now that I have my own family that, know, these moments with my son and my wife, they're a gift and they only come once and you got to do it once right the first time. And so I want to, you know, I want to have the right, uh, work life balance. so for me.

flexibility has actually become more important than the financial piece to whatever I do next because we split our time between Canada and Italy. I want to have the flexibility to help my wife when she needs help and to be with my son. And so the way that I'm, it's a work in progress, but what I'm aiming at for my relationship with money is this, dignity.

And what that means is, um, I heard this actually from, from a kind of a wise person who was an immigrant to Canada, who start, who came with nothing, he went without eating for meals. He slept on dirty couches and he's a self-made guy who ended up starting one of the biggest companies in Canada, total success story.

And the way that he described it is money is an enabler to live with dignity. Once you live with dignity, you have enough that you live with dignity. Like you don't need anymore. And what is dignity? What does dignity mean? Well, dignity is different for every person, right? Like if you're, if you're born in a wealthy family with a really big house for you to move into like a studio apartment and have a life there, maybe you're not going to feel like you're living with dignity, but

Tina (55:34)
Might be hard.

Pat Tenneriello (55:37)
If you had an upbringing like us, you know, middle class, like normal house, like

probably don't need a mansion to feel like you're living with dignity. And already found that dignity. Like I, to me, when I think about a house at the end of the day, it's four walls, right? Like we all live in four walls in a roof, as long as you have heat in the winter and

Air conditioning in the summer and the place is clean. Like what else do you need? Like when you get money, what are you going to do? You're to put fancy countertops. You might redo certain pieces of the house. You might modernize and renovate and add an addition, but like, is it really going to change your life? Like if you have, if dignity means getting on a plane once a year and taking a trip or twice a year, do you really care if you get six inches of more leg room or some champagne when you sit down?

Tina (56:00)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (56:21)
Like, it really going to change your trip all that much? If you stay at a three star instead of a five star, like, is it going to change? I feel like my view of money has matured and whereas some of those things may have mattered to me in the past, like they, certainly don't matter to me anymore and I'm willing to give them up. And as long as I live with dignity, my family lives with dignity and we have enough money for that, then I would much rather have flexibility and time to spend with my family and

time to carve out on things that bring me meaning, bring me joy, bring me purpose like this podcast, that is much more important to me. so that's kind of been the evolution of money. it makes me think of a quote by Tolstoy. So

says, power, itself. they have any worth at all,

actually from the joy that you would get from renouncing it all. I'm sure I butchered the if you think about it, if you could renounce those things, there's actually more joy in that. And when you think of the people who renounce those things.

those are the people that we look up to and admire the most in this world. Like you think just name people that you like the people that everyone know, like mama Teresa or like Gandhi or like now Nelson Mandela, like these people, they renounce those things that every human being cares about. of course I'll never be one of those people, but it, it helps to reinforce this idea that like it's probably

Tina (57:35)
Mmm.

Pat Tenneriello (57:50)
more to be had from renouncing that desire for wealth than to actually pursuing it.

Tina (57:55)
Yeah, it's very powerful. definitely makes you think. How are you taking that kind of mindset into your next phase of life next step in your career path?

Pat Tenneriello (58:10)
When I was talking about that transition, you know how transitions take time. so part of that when I was recognizing, okay, I'm chasing money, but my lifestyle, I don't need that much money and really I don't care that much about money. It's more for my ego, maybe when I'm comparing myself to...

my friends or to other people and say, hey, I'm making more than they are. But at the end of the day, I was signing into my bank account and watching pixels change. That's really the change that it was making. time I felt richest was actually at my poorest when I was doing my masters and I'd taken on $80,000 a line of credit to pay for it and was just charging everything to the card and not thinking twice because I knew I'd make money in the future. So yeah, what comes next, right?

I mean, this podcast is very important to me. I'm having so much fun doing it. I'm reconnecting with my sense of play and just doing something for the sake of learning something totally new. I enjoy sales, but I did it for 15 years and don't want to give up sales. Like I want to stick with sales because I think I'm good at it. I think people want my help and I can bring value, but I want to make space for new things

so many things to learn and growth comes from learning and growth comes from being willing to be the fool, right? Like being the fool before you can be, you know, the, experienced strong, you know, person that people look to, you got to be willing to suck at something. And it's like, I, want to suck at something. I want to learn new things. And so for me, this podcast has already been that I'm having so much fun with it. I want to continue with it.

Would I like to monetize it one day? Sure. Is it a priority right now? Not at all. Like when I think about my goals for the podcast this year, I don't care if it gets monetized or not. I'd love to introduce it to more listeners. I'd love to refine it. So in terms of, you know, paying the bills and living with dignity, I think what that looks like is, is transitioning to more of a consulting fractional.

role in doing what I know I do well and what I know people are willing to pay me for.

I'm open to change that plan might most likely, most certainly change. And I think this podcast talking to incredible people, every episode, it's like I'm downloading their brain into mine, at least like for two hours, I get to tap their brain and, and it just opens my mind up to things that I knew nothing about. And I think it's just going to point me into directions. have no idea yet, but

Tina (1:00:33)
You know, that leads me to my next question I want to ask you is how the podcast has helped you in your personal growth, you know, growth to purpose journey, because definitely when we listen to the podcast, we hear some great conversations. So how have they impacted you so far?

Pat Tenneriello (1:00:53)
I interview someone from the point of interviewing them to publishing the episode, I've probably heard the episode like between five and 10 times. So it really sticks and I'm really grateful. I get to, I've had some amazing guests already.

I feel like I've, I've already learned a lot with the podcast. know, really simple ones that I, I guess I knew, but I didn't really know is like courage over confidence, like episode one with JP. okay to be, to feel uncomfortable and to, and to feel like you're lost, but it did.

to just embrace courage, to practice courage. And launching this podcast has been an exercise in practicing courage, being willing to put my voice out there. when I hit publish on an episode, like there's in the back of my mind, there's like that self doubt, like someone's listening to this and laughing at me or someone's thinking this is garbage. And maybe it is right. Like I have never done it before. And like, I'm sure it's there's a lot of room for improvement, but like I'm practicing courage

working that muscle. Like I'm becoming more courageous with every episode. I'm trying to just change one little thing every episode and get that much better.

Tina (1:01:58)
if you looked at like long-term with a podcast or your, your overall hopes and dreams, what's your vision for it?

Pat Tenneriello (1:02:06)
consume a lot of podcasts and there are podcasts that I aspire to become. want it to become like them, but I want it to be my own, that would be kind of the 10,000 foot view.

more people that it can reach, the more people that it could have a real impact on. And that ultimately is like, what brings me meaning, for that to resonate with people, for them to take away real advice, real learnings, and then to implement them in their personal journey, in their transformation. Like.

deeply, that's what I care about. If I never make a dollar off the podcast, like that's fine. But if I get messages from people and I've already gotten some messages from people who've said, I, I've really loved like this tidbit, this moment in this episode. And I'd never thought about it that way. That to me, like makes it all worthwhile.

my vision is to be able to have that impact on as many people as possible and to present something different. Like what I'm bringing to the table is, is personal transformation. It's wisdom. There's a lot of podcasts out there that already do that. But what I think my spin is different is like mine, my original scope was

There's a lot of men in particular, aged between call it like 25 and 45, who they keep, you know, they, got into that mentality of like, I'm still young. Like I could go party. I could live that social life. I could date like, I'm still young. I'm still young. I'm still young. And then they wake up and they're like, shoot, I'm like 35 and I have all these things I still want to do. the heck did this happen? And

Tina (1:03:47)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (1:03:48)
So it's, it's, it's specifically aimed at those people that like, they, they just got stuck. it's really helping those people to make those changes that they need to, to get out of that and to grow up and take responsibility for their lives, set goals and work every day toward them. And of course, as I, as the podcast went live,

Like any startup, you know, it, changes and the scope kind of got bigger because the people I started speaking to said, yeah, that, that, that's not really my growing up story. My growing up story is this. And then I thought, well, everyone has a growing up story. Hearing about everyone's growing up story could be valuable in itself. And I'm sure that if we can hear more growing up stories, it can resonate with more people who might say that's more like my story. And so I thought, okay, let's run with this.

Tina (1:04:17)
Mm-hmm.

Pat Tenneriello (1:04:39)
Let's make it about growing up stories about growth. then hopefully in some episodes we can talk more specifically about Peter Pan syndrome. But that's my vision for the show.

Tina (1:04:52)
And to end on, you you talk about growing up and that's a question we hear you ask your guests a lot. So let me ask you, what does growing up mean to you?

Pat Tenneriello (1:05:03)
Growing up is realizing that life is bigger than yourself.

It's about getting past the pleasures that you get from your senses. it's getting beyond short-term gratification. about taking responsibility for yourself, your health, your life, aiming at something, and then working towards it every single day, no matter how hard and how slow it is.

It's about living with

And it's about thinking about others and not just yourself and empathizing with others. a journey that never ends know, you reach the top of a peak and there's just another one right behind waiting for you. That's, that's even higher. And it's, but it's about aiming up and continually wanting to continue on that journey, knowing that there's no end.

But knowing that if you take that trip, it's gonna justify all your suffering life fundamentally. Again, this is Zen Buddhism talking, life is suffering. human. You suffer.

And if you have a child, you'll see that, right? Like if you've held a colicky child, you know that there are suffering in life. It's not, life is not all suffering. I'm not, and some people, they don't like that word suffering. They think like that's so negative view of life. Like there's just joy, there's happiness, there's love, there's beauty, but they're suffering. If you accept your suffering, accept that there's something that's going to be suffering right away, that's liberating.

Tina (1:06:32)
No, no.

Pat Tenneriello (1:06:38)
think that the way to justify that suffering is to love your suffering, to embrace your suffering, to accept your suffering, to be worthy of your suffering. One of the great books that I read that was a game changer was Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. And that's where, you know, the famous quote like he who has a why can survive any how. I think growing up,

is accepting that there's gonna be suffering your life and being able to pick that up and run with it and own it and accept it and to find a journey and a challenge that is worthy of that suffering because that is ultimately what's gonna give meaning and purpose to your life and it's not about you. It can't be about you.

Tina (1:07:29)
without the suffering, how can you feel the joy like without the lows? How can you feel the highs? Truly life is the balance of that the highs are that much better because of the incredible lows that you've felt as well.

Pat Tenneriello (1:07:44)
Yeah, I completely agree.

Tina (1:07:47)
Is there anything that you want to add that I didn't ask you?

Pat Tenneriello (1:07:51)
one thing that I meant to say in my therapy I think is really important

It's important not to be so hard on ourselves. Like I have a tendency to be very hard on myself. I And there's nothing noble in a bully, especially when that bully is ourselves. so when I was talking about taking two steps forward and taking a step back and

Tina (1:08:06)
Yeah, that's true.

Pat Tenneriello (1:08:12)
you try and do something, if you try and make a change overnight, like you won't be able to do it. You're going to fail. Like try it. You'll fail. and so the way to do it is to not be a bully and to not be so hard on yourself. And when you take that step forward to reward yourself. early on, if I, if I did something like I delayed, I deleted the dating apps, right. Then maybe I went and I ate junk food for a week.

Tina (1:08:33)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (1:08:36)
Or like, maybe I went and I got, I got drunk for like, for like, allowed myself things that even if I knew, I knew I wanted to change, but like, you can't do it all at once. It's not going to happen overnight. And so I just, I just wanted to say, cause this comes up in, in many of the episodes, like don't be a bully to yourself and give yourself space to take that step back and reward yourself, yourself a pat on the back.

Tina (1:08:45)
You go easy.

Pat Tenneriello (1:09:01)
it's due.

Tina (1:09:03)
Yeah, I like that. You you hear a lot that term like give yourself grace, you know, go easy on yourself because it's true. We always have that voice. That voice inside the head is often like you wouldn't say that to your best friend, you know, you wouldn't say that to someone who loves that's good advice. We got to recheck how hard we can be on ourselves. Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (1:09:23)
Yeah, compassion,

compassion for ourselves.

Tina (1:09:27)
But no, thank you for the opportunity. And I think that, you know, it's, I really enjoyed speaking with you today. I think you did a great job. I've really been enjoying your podcast. And I think that a couple of things, like number one, when you were talking about your, first episode with JP is like taking risks. You know, this is,

launching this podcast is not, it's something new, it's something out of your comfort zone, but taking the risk and going for it. And you just see how once you take that first step, there's like a momentum that happens, right? You start being proud of what you're putting out there. You start getting that positive feedback and it feels good and you keep going and you keep going. And that's like truly how you build something. And another good lesson that it is, that

I think that oftentimes like one thing that people can associate to growing up is like you grow up and like you get one job or something. You know, you have like your family and you have a job and you put everything into one thing. But I don't think that that fits like the reality today. And I don't think that it fits most personalities in the sense of like, we're allowed to have many passions, you know.

And sometimes that was one thing I had to learn in my career journey is like, was looking for that one job that would fulfill all of my, like just make me happy and everything. And I was, the bar was just so high for what I was looking for. And it was kind of unattainable. Whereas when I realized that it's like, no, you know what, like your job or like what you do to pay the bills is going to be like one thing of the multiple things in your life. So I think that your podcast is also

you know, a reminder of that, of like, you don't have to do something just because it's paying your bills. Like, let's also normalize, like investing time in things that just fulfill us and like make us proud and make us happy and not only look for that one job that's going to do that for us, because I'm not sure. I mean, for some people, maybe that exists and that's great, but I know personally for me, like that doesn't exist. I have too many.

I have too many different cups to fill.

Pat Tenneriello (1:11:44)
And I think on the career side that you said too, think we do young people a tremendous disservice. think we lie to them when we tell them that career is going to be the most meaningful thing that they do with their lives. And I think I was in that lie for a long time. Like I used to think I want to accomplish everything before I have a family.

Tina (1:11:58)
Yeah.

Pat Tenneriello (1:12:08)
Right? Like get it done before. Cause I know when I have a family, I won't have any time. And so I was like deep in that and like career matters most careers. Number one. And I remember thinking also like any idiot can get married. Any idiot could be a parent, could be a father. So like there's nothing, it's not an achievement. That's not something to be proud of. It's like work on my career. But the thing I got wrong with that, maybe it's obvious to a parent.

Tina (1:12:08)
Mmm.

Pat Tenneriello (1:12:36)
wasn't obvious to me until now. It's like, yes, any idiot could be a father, but not every idiot could be a good father. Not every idiot could be a good husband, a present husband. And so I think if I can be those things, be much, that's an achievement I could be much more proud of than the amount of revenue I maybe I brought through the door for a company or, you know, having people that I report to me or whatever. So.

Tina (1:12:42)
Yeah, exactly.

Pat Tenneriello (1:13:05)
think in the education system, like, don't know how that could change, but I feel like in terms of value sets, I think it needs to change. And I think it ties back into that population decline problem that the world is going to see is coming. if we're dedicating, and thinking that career is everything, then the other things fall to the wayside, like having a family.

Tina (1:13:26)
Yeah, and once you do become a parent, that's one thing I find is you realize how like, it's the most important thing, you know? I find that until you live it, or at least that was my personal experience, like until I actually became a mother, it just, all of a sudden I realized like, wow, this is truly the most important role in my life. Like this is gonna be.

That is the legacy you leave behind, really, I think. I mean, there's different legacies, but personally to me, the most important is like how I raise my children. they could be proud of me, that they could be happy with, you know, of course that we're all human and I don't expect that I'm going to do everything right. But that's still at the end of the day, when they're older, they can look back and you know, they can talk about their mom in a good way, being happy with the way they were raised.

So yeah, because I didn't realize it until became a mom that it's like, it's not in your career that people are gonna remember you by. Like maybe there might be some highlights in your career that people will remember you by, but it's a lot bigger than that.

Pat Tenneriello (1:14:23)
You get emotional just talking about it, eh?

have to tell Mixy thank you for making her guest appearance. We'll have to put her in the credits. Yeah, mean, the last half an hour we heard her a little bit, but it'll add some character to the episode, so.

Tina (1:14:46)
Did you hear her too long or what? Did you hear a lot?

Yeah, just

explain that. I'm going to go up and feed her now because I think she's crying because she wants her milk. She's waiting for the milk.

Pat Tenneriello (1:15:00)
Okay. Well,

I'm grateful that my sister interviewed me all her expertise to bear on this conversation. so thanks Tina. I love you.

Tina (1:15:11)
I love you too and thank you for having me. go back and listen to this or our kids could listen to this 10 years from now. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it. Yeah, for sure. Our parents are so lame.

Pat Tenneriello (1:15:21)
laugh at us. What a loser.

Tina (1:15:28)
No, it's been a great opportunity. So thank you.

Pat Tenneriello (1:15:31)
All right, Tina.

Tina (1:15:32)
Bye.

Pat Tenneriello (1:15:33)
Okay, bye bye.

Pat Tenneriello (1:15:34)
Well, that's a wrap on this episode of the After Peter Pan podcast. If you found it insightful, please drop us a rating or give us a like. It really helps to widen our audience. Thank you again for tuning in and I'll see you in a few weeks. Bye bye.