How to Live with Lightness and Unleash Your Passion | Ashwin Muthiah

In this episode of After Peter Pan, I sit down with Ashwin Muthiah—a writer, wine educator, and flavor globetrotter—to explore his transformative journey from traditional success metrics to living a life aligned with passion and play. Ashwin shares his growth story, the health crisis that sparked his reevaluation of priorities, and how a handwritten list helped him focus on what truly brings him joy.

We dive deep into themes of play, commitment, and the balance between ambition and presence. Ashwin discusses the pivotal role of therapy and life coaching in his growth, the lessons he's learned from privilege and pressure, and how he's using his love for wine to spread light in the world. Along the way, we touch on universal struggles like decision-making, fleeting desires, and redefining success on your own terms.

Tune in for a raw and thoughtful conversation about embracing life's journey, shedding the weight of societal expectations, and cultivating a life that feels authentically joyful.

Resources Mentioned:

• Ashwin's wine education platform, Unpinned
• Ashwin's Documentary: In Pursuit of Flavor
• Mark Manson - "Screw Finding Your Passion": Article

Episode Highlights:

• Finding purpose through play and creativity
• The role of therapy in unlocking emotional growth
• How to reconcile privilege with personal responsibility
• Lessons on commitment, authenticity, and staying true to yourself

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Intro
• 3:15 The Health Scare that Drove Transformation
• 9:10 The Importance of Play and Fun
• 13:20 Making Space for Self-Reflection
• 18:22 The Pressure of Wealth & Privilege
• 25:30 Lessons from Therapy
• 27:39 Growing Up: A Personal Perspective
• 31:10 Living in the Moment & Shifting to a Journey Mindset
• 35:34 Aiming to Be a Light in the World
• 40:28 Persistence & Shedding Cocky Persona for Love
• 42:44 A Dilemma of Fleeting Desires
• 47:05 Growing Up to Lightness
• 48:17 Ashwin's Wine Courses & Documentary
• 50:46 Outro

Transcript

Pat (00:00)
Welcome to the second episode of After Peter Pan. I’m your host, Pat Tenneriello.
If this is your first time tuning in, I recommend checking out our trailer to learn more about what this podcast is all about.
Today, I’m excited to share an intimate interview with Ashwin Muthiah—a writer, wine educator, documentary host, and a passionate explorer of the world through flavor.

After a health scare brought on by the demands of his career and lifestyle, Ashwin underwent a radical transformation, embracing a life of passion and discovery. His journey led him to become a source of light, living in the moment and prioritizing the journey over the destination.

I deeply admire Ashwin’s drive to become the best and lightest version of himself, and I think you’ll find his story just as inspiring as I do.
Thanks for tuning in, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Pat (00:56)
maybe we could start off Ash by just tell me, a little bit about yourself. When people ask you that question today, how do you answer it?

Ashwin (01:03)
Ashwin Mathaiya, that's my name. I was born in India and bounced between India and the US for the first 10 to 12 years of my life and settled and got schooled and everything in

and then about five, six years ago, along with my now we decided we wanted to start exploring the rest of the world. We always traveled, but it was usually weeks at a time. And we decided we wanted months or years at a time, which required like tons of shifts in our lives, not all of which were easy, professional shifts, financial

And so the last five years, years, I didn't have a place I called quote unquote home because we bounced every couple months to a different country like Georgia or Scotland or Hungary, Italy, of course, where we now live. We've lived permanently for a couple of years in Italy. you asked me to tell you about myself. I'm telling you where I live because I think that shares a lot about of

how Savannah and I both want to live our lives, which is the world is a beautiful, amazing, large, fascinating place. And most of us don't get to experience that much of it. And we're pretty privileged in that we can. And we've also made some sacrifices such that we can. I think that says a lot about me and what I like. I love food, love wine. I've spent a lot of my creative efforts dedicated to wine. I wrote a book, which I actually never

published, the first part of that book turned into a documentary, which was about as hard as I've ever worked, but it was extremely rewarding. And I have kind of a duality of lives where I still have quote unquote traditional employment. So I do consulting work in the growth technology space. I've been doing that for pretty much my entire career. But over time, I've carved out more and more room to do things that I love.

just for the sake of loving it. So I would do it even if I weren't paid, is kinda how I like to consider it. I hope to get paid for the work I'm doing in that sphere, which is in the world of wine and mostly teaching about wine, but I haven't quite fully gotten that needle to move far enough just yet, but hopefully soon. that's me in a somewhat large nutshell.

Pat (03:15)
You've been able to devote more space to these passions. And that's, that's not an easy balance. first of all, you need to pick something and it's.

It's scary to pick something because you're admitting, you don't have that something. And it means you're giving up potentially all the other some things that you might be interested in. is it a hobby? Is it something I love, but I love lots of things?

Could you talk about how you put your hat on, what it is you're doing? What did that process look like?

Ashwin (03:44)
I remember there was like a very specific moment where this happened and Pat, you and I knew each other at the time. It was early in our friendship. It was when we were both living in Philly. know, we shared a professional life for a time and it's like a hard working environment. And I was having very real health trouble. was early twenties, generally very healthy.

But I having some very real health trouble that I saw a bunch of doctors about. they ran all the various tests, like things that you wouldn't normally do to a 23, 24 year old, endoscopy, colonoscopy. So it was clear that the issue wasn't really medical. It became clear, especially in one of the last doctor's visits I had, it was with a surgeon where the...

They recommended, we're going to try to take out your gallbladder and see if that helps your severe stomach aches. And that was like the aha moment that there was something very real, something very big that's just not quite right in life at the moment that the, you know, the doctor's like, we're going to cut you open, pull something out. And it's going to be like a guess and check. Let's see if that works. And if it doesn't, you know, in my head, I'm what are you going to be like taking my stomach next? Like, what, what, what do you mean? You're just going to like take something out. So that for me was the moment when.

I realized that, okay, we need some kind of large shift. And this is built on top of like some light dissatisfaction throughout, which was I was spending the vast majority of my time and energy on something that wasn't that meaningful to me. And I wouldn't say that I hated it by any stretch. Like it was interesting. It was just like the dosage of it was way too high and there was very little time or energy left to do anything else. And so the first question,

the one you asked, like, how do you pick something? I read this article by an author named Mark Manson And it was called Screw Finding Your Passion, which is kind of an ironic title and it landed in my inbox or my desk or someone sent it to me at the perfect time. And the basic argument was, look, if you're searching out there for something you're passionate about, you're doing it wrong.

And he used this analogy of being a kid where, you know, when you're six and you're on the playground, you just like go have fun. You literally just go have fun. There's no intermediary steps. But as an adult, you start to think, well, okay, we'll go on and play on monkey bars. That's more solitary. I might fall. I could get hurt. Instead, I could go play kickball. Then I'll be with all the other kids. But then there's that one kid that's like kind of big and he's kind of mean. Like we don't really...

We don't, as adults, we do that, but as kids, just go play. And it's a beautiful analogy for finding a passion, which is you don't need to go look all out there. You can, but my journey was I had plenty of things I love to do. And so I made a list. was like, I love playing darts. I like playing basketball, like music. I like playing guitar. I like food. I like wine. Like I just made a list. I'm dreamer and I'm also somewhat practical

So I looked at that list and you've probably heard me crack this joke many times, but you know, I'm not playing an NBA this lifetime. Like that ship has sailed. I'm not going to be a rock star. That ship has also sailed. And so the list kind of whittled down to things that I could feasibly pursue in a way that could become productive. I didn't have like major drivers for financial productivity at the time. was more just

I want something that I'm dedicating energy to that feels like it makes me a better person and brings me joy. That was the criteria. And with some room for potential professional development too. And then, what was really left was like food, wine, and bartending. I already knew how to cook pretty well because my mom is a phenomenal cook and I learned from her and my grandma. And then ultimately I ended up choosing wine. the challenges people face, and I'm really aware of,

is this FOMO challenge, right? If I pick one, I'm giving up all the others. And I think that creates a lot of pressure that's not, it's not necessary because you can pick one and then you can change. You can pick one for as long as it's interesting to you and then you can shift. often, like the first thing you pick is probably not gonna be the right thing. And you know this about me, I've started a bunch of businesses.

most would be considered traditionally failures because they didn't generate hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. But I don't, as much as I can, I try not to consider them failures because I learned each time I was like, mostly I stopped running a business because I didn't want to do it anymore. Not because it didn't have a chance to become something big. And I think that's probably where maybe people get caught up is like, I need to pick the right thing.

where I won't want to stop doing it. And I think that creates so much pressure that it then becomes hard to move forward. And so, yeah, my guidance would be like, make this little list, pick something. You might get down that path for like one month and be like, screw this, I don't like it. Or you might find yourself 10 years later still in love with that thing, but it doesn't need to be so heavy as I gotta get this right and everything else on the table goes away.

the Western traditional be productive, economical approach very much enforces this pick one thing, become the world's best at it. And then that's how you succeed. Well, that's a fucking a lot of pressure. Most people don't thrive well under that kind of pressure, myself

Pat (09:10)
I want to pick up on some of the themes I think I got from your answer One is the theme of play and the theme of fun. And so as adults, we kind of forget, like talking about your example on the monkey bars and that, like we forget to have to play and to have fun.

I consume a lot of Jordan Peterson podcasts. one thing he talks about is play as sort of the antidote to resentment. when people are doing something, they don't really enjoy doing it, but they're doing it. then you fast forward for a long time, you start to feel resentful. You start to feel bitter. You might start to feel jealous because you see other people succeeding and

and doing things that they love and they just maybe they seem happier, lighter. And so the antidote to that is really to find your play and to find your fun. I think there's a lot of truth to that. And also what you said about

pressure. It's like if you pick one thing and what if you're wrong and my God, like of course you're never, you know, you're, less likely to pick something. That's it. That is a lot of pressure on your shoulders. So the idea that you could just pivot and pick something else. And when you made that list, right? Like practically speaking, was it an Excel sheet? Were you weighting each item or was it more like just a conversation with your partner? Like how did you go about, picking?

Ashwin (10:25)
There's a literal list on paper. was analog, it was old school. there's so much data -driven thinking out in the world, and this has gotten progressively more intense, I would say worse, but a lot of people would argue that this is better. And this is a big problem because you can't use data -driven thinking for your life because there are no data points like you.

Right? This is why the most important decisions you'll ever make in your life there's no, it comes from in here. Like, you know, like pointing to my heart, my chest, like it comes from and this is where it becomes really challenging because we try to intellectualize a lot of these exercises and we've become conditioned to intellectualize these exercises to the point where we stop listening to those little things from inside, those whispers, those feelings, the calling.

And so, yeah, wasn't, and I was very much like super on the intellectual side. Like I'm reasonably smart. Like I studied a lot. I did well on tasks, like all that kind of stuff. So that was an area I was really strong. And as a result, like I wouldn't give that much weight to other things that were softer and more subtle and gentle. And that was part of, think, what landed me in the first place where I wasn't doing so well.

So my list was just on paper and it was one of the first exercises of listening. Just like what feels right. And then after the fact, I had plenty of justifications because that's just what we do. It's like, wine is beautiful because you get to travel the world. It's beautiful because you get to use a lot of different foreign languages. It's beautiful because it's a study of history and culture. There's all these reasons that came later.

And even this kind of like caricaturization of like, I'm not playing the NBA and I'm not going to be a music star. That that all of that really came later. It was mostly just like this feeling I got when I started thinking about wine and just started picturing this life. It just felt warm. It felt cozy. It felt it felt like my future me. I like I saw this path and I'm like that I see that Ashwin when I want I want to meet him. I want to be him. And those are things you can't

you kind of just gotta like sit with it and let it come out. So, and I know that's not so practical, right? It's not as practical as making an Excel sheet and putting in all the different columns and weighting it with the numbers. And I know a lot of people that like to do things that way, but in my mind for these big, these kind of like big swings in life, it's just, I don't think it really, it doesn't lead you towards happiness. It leads you maybe towards optimization, but I don't think that leads you to be like content.

Pat (13:07)
And a lot of people are uncomfortable with sitting with themselves, making space to think or to feel those decisions through.

How do you make space? know, people work, they have personal commitments, and when they have downtime, they may be just exhausted and they just want to sit on the couch and watch something. I went through a program called Men in Healing about five years ago, and one of the first things we did was, how are you feeling today? was a psychotherapy program, and I had never...

really stopped to ask myself how I felt and to check in with myself until I was in my thirties. And so for you, do you make space And what does it feel like?

Ashwin (13:53)
Yeah, dude, it is hard as fuck to make space. It's so hard and then it's all start there. But it's also just wildly important. And it reminds like it's something my dad told me like 10 years ago. He's like, you can't paint without a blank canvas. You can't take a messy canvas and paint. course you can, but you kind of get where that metaphor is going. So for me at that time,

Space was therapy. That was where it started for me, was there's an hour dedicated to getting to know myself better. at the time it was like, I mean, I was kind of in crisis. I was like physically unwell. I was like very anxious and stressed and just not, I didn't feel good. I didn't feel light. I didn't feel happy.

therapy was this space to sit with things, sit with how I felt about things. And then of course, like living a life that's lighter necessarily means you are willing to go be with the stuff that's heavier so that it can release, You can't become light without facing the dark and

without being with that really uncomfortable stuff. And I think that's why people struggle to just sit. I struggle to just sit. I was telling Savannah last night, walking home, we were like, there's there's a pizzeria across the way. They said 30 minutes. We said, okay, fine. To like pick up a takeout. So we walked home and then we wanted to buy a couple of things from the grocery store to make a salad. Then I was going to walk back to get the pizza. And I was like, I'll just come with you to the grocery store. Cause I'm going to have 10 minutes without anything to do.

And likely what will happen in those 10 minutes, I'm going to sit on the couch and pull out my phone. And I was like, well, what would be better is if I could figure out a way to just sit even for 10 minutes, but it's so uncomfortable. Like it's really, really hard. And so I think a dedicated space to do that and to start with someone else to help you do that is, is amazing. And it's, I'm glad that the world is changing, that there's less and less stigma and shame around getting help to.

be with yourself because it's pretty hard and scary, especially if you're not accustomed to it. So that's where I started. It was a dedicated one hour a week and it's purposeful for the space to grow. And then now I have a life coach, but I do think you kind of, I'm sure there are greater demons than me. I can just sit and meditate and do a great job, but I need some help.

Pat (16:35)
So did you say you have a life coach and that's separate from therapy?

Ashwin (16:40)
Yeah, growth doesn't end right? So in therapy, often I'd be working with something like shame or perfectionism and I'll have felt like I really made a breakthrough and often I would think like, all right, like I did it, it's done. Perfectionism is dealt with, we're moving on to the next thing. But that's not how life works. you deal with it.

on an ongoing basis, it doesn't end. so growth isn't, you it's not like just fricking hockey stick and you're just like going up and up and up. it's a side wave that you hope is kind of trending upwards. And so, so, know, like I've like been in and out of therapy and I don't really view it as like moving backwards. If I feel like I need to get that kind of support again, they're probably like five or six different times. I've been like, okay, I've closed this chapter. I'm going to, I'm not going to have therapy for awhile and then maybe I'll go back and I'm sure there will be a time.

where I'll need that kind of support again. But more recently, I found a life coach and it can be similar to therapy, but it's different in that in therapy, I feel like the bulk of what you're doing is moving through the difficult things that happened in the past and how do you liberate yourself from those things. And life coaching feels a little bit more future oriented.

where do I want to go and how can I change the way I exist today or embrace certain things about the way I exist today to arrive at this future? I think they're both beautiful, wonderful practices and that you can do them at the same time, can them asynchronously. so yeah, I've started working with the life coach in the last year or so.

Pat (18:19)
That's a good description of the kind of the difference between those two roles. You brought up your father earlier, and this was an area that it was a moment in a conversation you and I had that really was an aha moment for me, your father a very successful person.

financially and professionally I always assumed coming from a middle class I always thought, if only I came from a wealthy background, the doors to the world would be so much more open and I'd be able to do all these things that I can't do. I'd have money and And I remember when you and I had a...

conversation and you flipped that thought on its head for me. in the sense that it actually puts a lot of pressure on someone's shoulders who may be wealthy. I don't know if you remember that conversation you with me, but like for you to share that if you can,

Ashwin (19:11)
Yeah, I'm happy to. This is, this is one of those more touchy topics and I'm like really happy to dive into it, but it's, it's touchy because there are very real positives and there are like, you know, from my personal experience, like challenges. And from the outside, when I, when I share this and I'm sure there will be listeners when I share this, they're like,

Champagne problems, rich kid problems, and it's like it's easy to feel invalidated sharing these things. Which is why it comes a little bit later in a friendship, these are are parts of my life that I tend to, unless you're coming to my dad's house, you're not really gonna know. But if you go to my dad's house, unfortunately, or fortunately, you'll know immediately. So it's like, I will acknowledge straight away the privilege.

Right? Like I, got to travel a lot growing up. my, and my parents, they divorced much later in my life. I think it was in my early twenties. so they were, they were unhappy for quite a while. And so travel ended up being this welcome distraction. and so we got to see the world, which is beautiful and amazing. And I never had to worry about things like, where am going to get my next meal? Or I need new cleats or whatever. Right? Like there's a lot of real.

privilege there. I could go to school, university, mean, wherever I wanted. And so those are like real things that very few people have and I'm grateful for them and they've very much shaped my life and who I am. But also, we'll hold both of these things together. When you grow up much naturally as you move into your

anything short of that amount of feels inadequate. so two things happen. One is it creates a lot of pressure to arrive at that level of wealth, which is not easy to do. And then kind of parallel to that, it's a calling for a lot of work on yourself that I don't need to arrive at that level of wealth.

be successful. My version of success can be different than this version of success. And what's challenging about embracing that is the version of success that my dad has had is the version that the entire world kind of puts its rubber seal on saying that this is successful. Right. And so you need to go and do some inner work to I am going to choose a version of success that is

not accepted by almost everyone, but it feels more true for is one, it is an ongoing process. Like it's not, I haven't like finished doing that. It comes up all the time, right? Like all the time, even like Florence is full of designer stores. Yeah, every once in you'll see something in there that you really, like. And you're like, man, like if only.

Pat (22:11)
you

Ashwin (22:13)
and then all of those things come back like, well, if I chose the more traditional path, what success would look like on my good days. It's like an opportunity for growth and it's a welcome one on, on not so good days. It's like, it sucks. You know, you feel less, you know, it's like that pressure becomes something that becomes internalized.

Pat (22:27)
Mm

Ashwin (22:32)
and I think they can both exist, right? I want to be, I want to make sure it's clear, like I understand there was very real privilege and it made like a massive impact on my life. And then at the same time, there's also pressures that I had to carry and still carry that impact who I am and how I

Pat (22:48)
Thanks for sharing that. That's a very personal thing. And I think that this is where your authenticity really shines. Because if it wasn't authentic, I think that's where the whiny rich kid would prevail. that's not what comes. through when you shared

Ashwin (23:05)
Thank you.

Pat (23:06)
I'm curious about that pressure, right? It comes from within. it's self, it's there because maybe you put it there, but it could also be from external, right? when I think of my dad, what he would say is I want you to have more than what I had,

it was always like that benchmark. And so was that pressure external or was it mostly internal?

Ashwin (23:24)
a funny question because I'll add another dimension to that question, which is time. Because it shifted over time between external and internal. So one of the things that when, you know, when you go through any kind of like self -healing, internal healing process, usually you'll go do some of your child work. You'll discover the patterns that emerged when you were younger.

that then become internalized and you then carry with you forward, right? And so the dialogue that surrounds you when you're three, four, five, six, seven, that dialogue when you're 30 is your internal dialogue, right? And so these were initially external pressures. And you have to keep in mind, like my parents went through their own growth journeys. mean, they were younger than I am now when I was born.

like bring some perspective of, even if I had a kid today, there would still be some stuff I'd be dumping on him or her that I don't really wanna dump And so it started external, right? And not, when you're young, it doesn't start with money. It starts with like the other things you need to achieve in life. Asian household, Indian household, like my parents had come from India, like grades.

you have to do really well in school. And then, and that pressure internally continues to build, even if the external pressure eases, which it did, what you internalize when you're young, five, six, seven, that becomes something you carry with you forward, by the time I was an early adult, there wasn't any external pressure to achieve, but it had all been internalized. And that internal pressure was so high, like it was so high that it

you know, push my body to the breaking point.

So that's why it's a funny dynamic, because by the time you're dealing with it as an adult, it's fully internal. But the source of it is, I think, to some large extent, external at the outset. And then you get into nature versus nurture. And even as a little kid, I was pretty ambitious even before my parents pushed me. So that's its own separate thing. Like, how much do you separate between those?

Pat (25:30)
Got it. And you're touching on some therapy themes, at least in my therapy, some of what you're saying rings true. I'm wondering for listeners, you've probably gotten a lot from therapy, but is there one thing that has really stuck with you from therapy that could be really valuable to hear as a listener? May not have gone through that therapy journey yet.

Ashwin (25:37)
Yeah.

But one of the ones that comes to the forefront

It's what I call like the Sorcerer's Stone like theme, which has occurred many times for me through therapy and even in life coaching, which is this notion of that there are a lot of people who are Harry Potter fans. In the first book, there's a stone that Harry wants to get and it's in this mirror and you can only get it if you want it, but you don't want to use it. Right? So almost everybody wants the stone. They want to use the stone. If you want it and you don't want to use it, then you

stone and so much of growing is like that. It's I want to be like some other way, right? That's usually what growth is. But it's when you embrace what you already are is when you naturally shift to being this other way. So when you like say that version of me over there is what I want to be, it actually gets harder to become that version.

As opposed to when you embrace like, is it that's here right now? That's kind of blocking me when you can just like hold that and love that is when you just kind of like naturally shift. And so often during therapy, I'd be like, okay, I get it, but how do I do that? And immediately when I, when I would do that, it's like, you know, I either I would recognize it or usually was, you know, my therapist would recognize it. Like, well, no, let's, let's, let's not go there. Let's stay here.

that's like one of those larger metaphors. It's like just embracing where you are is how you get to where

Pat (27:29)
And I see a parallel here between what we were talking about earlier, which is it's not about looking outside of yourself. It's about looking within. that a

Ashwin (27:38)
Yeah.

Pat (27:39)
Great, thanks for sharing that. we could shift gears to talk about your growing up story. when you and I first met, you were in your early 20s, I think. May have been just shy of maybe like 21 But you're always like super mature. Like I would always forget your age, even though you and I are.

Ashwin (27:53)
Yeah, 21, 22, something like that, yeah.

Pat (28:02)
maybe close to 10 years apart or something like that. were you always a very mature guy? Like, did you grow up quickly? what, was Ashwin like as a teenager in high school or

Ashwin (28:11)
Yeah, high school Ashwin was cocky as fuck. Yeah, pretty, pretty arrogant. But I think that's like, I say that even lovingly towards my past self. Like, I mean, you're 16, 17, you're a teenager, right? Like you often, a lot of teenage boys, men, like are cocky and that's just part of that age. But I think a lot of it stemmed from, and this is, I think also very parallel to most

Pat (28:15)
Hahaha

Ashwin (28:38)
teenager experiences is like, so insecure. Right? So you hide that insecurity with this like veil of cockiness. And I remember in middle school, like, you know, I was always smart. I was always like generally top of the class. I got really good grades. as I got to middle school, like I started developing an interest in girls and I was not very good at talking to girls or,

And you know, like anything romantic, I was not good at at all. And so I kind of had this like, you know, sad epiphany, which I was like, I'm kind of a loser with what it was. And this is a lot of my therapy journey was going back to that version of myself being like, you weren't a loser, but that, was the dialogue for me at the time. And so then the way I sought to fix that is like, you when you're 12, you don't have the emotional resources to be like, well, let me go.

I addressed the root source of the shame. yeah, at that point it was like, all right, well, let me just do things that cool people do and, let me like apply my brain to solve this problem. And so I started just learning to do things. started learning guitar, I learned piano, I learned the drums, I started playing sports, I became pretty good at basketball and soccer. that, that kind of like fed this somewhat cocky narrative of like,

I'm smart and I'm athletic and I'm musical. And so that's, that's a little bit what teenage Ashwin from was like, you know, there's gooey chocolate center. Like I was always a sweet person. think I wasn't, I tried not to be mean, but I thought very highly of myself and perhaps too highly.

And then I got to college and that changed a lot because I was surrounded by a lot of people who were also really good at everything. And so that kind of like that cocky shell mostly collapsed. And then what was left was like a pretty insecure person that had a lot of growing up to do.

college was like challenging.

for a bunch of reasons.

where everyone at the school I was at wanted to become either an investment banker or a consultant and I didn't want to do those things but that's what everybody wanted to do and everybody was really smart so I'm like caught in this like I'm like looking at a stampede trying to go in the other direction so yeah there's like some growing up that happens when you're facing that.

Pat (30:57)
you maybe in high school weren't as well rounded as you've become and you were

you're self -aware and you made some changes and you learned about sports and music and so on would you say that you were good with delayed gratification? Or

Was there a shift that took place later in life

Ashwin (31:12)
was either wired or raised to kind of generally think longer term. So for me, that just kind of came naturally. And that may be part of what you're referring to when you say I seemed mature when I was in my early 20s is that long -term goals,

They always came first as long as I can remember, to my detriment as well. That's where a lot of the therapy was kind of, okay, how can we unwind some of this and reduce some of the tension? It's like unwind these springs because sometimes it's just better to just be present and enjoy. But where I came from was almost the other side, which was overly favoring the long -term goal, often at the sacrifice of...

you know, kind of being well in the moment.

Pat (32:03)
So was more about you always had your eye on long -term goals and for you it's more rejigging what those goals were reorienting yourself towards goals that were Ashwin goals and not necessarily other folks' goals.

Ashwin (32:20)
Yeah, it was partially that and then partially just like no goals. Like I used to have a group of friends with whom, you know, from college and onward, like we would write our goals and circulate them and kind of critique them and hold each other accountable. And part of my therapy journey was like to stop doing that kind of thing, like have goals, but allow them to be fluid, allow them to...

You know, be more like the pirates code in the parts of the Caribbean. They're more like guidelines as opposed to like, I'm going to do everything to achieve this goal, which often meant like, okay, I'm not enjoying the journey. I just want to get to the destination, which is kind of horseshit because you spend your entire life in the journey. Right? Like if you're pick whatever destination and whatever goal it is, like let's, let's pick a financial one because that's easy. I want to make a million dollars. Okay.

mean, if it takes you 10 years to make that million dollars, you're not really enjoying that. You just spent 10 years being unhappy, you know? So I think it was kind of like removing some of these goals, or at least removing the weight around the goals. Allow them to be way lighter. Like, hey, if I hit it, great.

probably reason, and it's probably for the better.

Pat (33:41)
I completely agree with you about your message around the journey and not the destination. Because that is once you get to the destination, then it's just a matter of picking the next journey. Because if you sit and stagnate at the destination, the destination will corrupt you. I like to think about Rocky, because, in each movie, his journey is to beat, you know, Paulo Creed to beat the next one. And

Ashwin (33:51)
Right?

Pat (34:01)
And what happens when he gets to the top, right? That's where he gets corrupted. He's rich and he forgets who he is and then he loses to Mr. T and Rocky III. And so, and so he's stagnated and he's the destination has corrupted him. He's forgot who he is and then he needs the next journey. And that's Rocky. Well, that's Mr. T and then Rocky IV, goes to Russia. So I completely with you when you talk about it's only the journey. There only is the journey.

Ashwin (34:26)
Yeah, it's and it's one of those things that is cliche. So we it tends to lose its value because we hear it so much, but it's more like the essence of it is really profound and it's applicable, right? Because the way I think about it is every day, like am I generally enjoying the day? And if I'm not generally enjoying the day and that's normal, like I don't really enjoy the day today.

join the day tomorrow. Well, mean, okay, we've got to some changes, right? Because each one of those days is what's going to ultimately become the life that you look back it's so important and it can be pretty easy. the first step is just acknowledging it. Because a lot of people are not that happy in their day to day, you don't even... It's hard to admit that itself, right?

Hmm, maybe I'm not that happy. Because then that means you gotta like do something about it.

Pat (35:24)
Yeah.

Ashwin (35:25)
Or you're going to be miserable, right? Or you're not going to be, or you're going be kind of like you were saying, you build up this resentment and you become bitter and jealous.

Pat (35:25)
Well said.

we talked about privilege. With privilege comes responsibility. you are a very intelligent person.

And again, that comes with a certain amount of responsibility, and potentially guilt, right? Because I have these gifts and it's like, want to make sure I'm putting them out into the world and making the most use of them.

Ashwin (35:40)
Thanks.

Pat (35:51)
for you and the journey that you're on, it's fun, it's authentic, there's play, but there must be a sense of responsibility in that as well, and a sense of purpose and meaning and

giving back in that process, I wonder if you could talk about what these words mean to you, because they can also be a bit cliche.

Ashwin (36:09)
Yeah, it's 100 % it's

my view might be a bit contrarian.

you talk about guilt, right? That was like a thing that came up for me, especially during the lead up to the 2020 election, where I tried to do some volunteering for Biden, for make phone calls and write letters.

Because I mean, like I really, really, really wanted to see a more progressive world. And I still, I very much still do, but that, it was, that volunteer work sucked. Like I hated it. I just like, I did not like it. Like picking up the phone and calling random strangers was, was just the worst thing ever for me. And, and so like what I've realized, why I bring that up is

There are things in our lives that make us light up. There are, that make our souls, our hearts, our eyes, like they make you sparkle. They just, you just illuminate. You become a light in the and for me, one of those things is wine and it's teaching about wine and sharing about wine because there's so much.

It's not just for me. It's not just something that you're drinking and get drunk, right? For some people it is and I understand that but for me it's like a medium to tell stories about our common ancestry and what brings us together and what I believe is a path forward for our world that's better than the one we're on today. A world where we connect with each other more. We are more present with the people in our lives and that's the beautiful thing about wine is like that's

That's what it does. It's been, it's been its role in society for 8 ,000 years. And so I'm veering a little bit, but that makes me light up. Like it makes me so joyful and light and jubilant. And I think people can feel that energy. And so my view now, when I think about kind of responsibility and what I want to offer the world is I want to offer the world light. And what

What that means for me right now is kind of this path in the world of wine. It may not always be that. In fact, I'm certain that at some point it will change and even kind of my relationship with wine has changed over the years. But the way I view that responsibility is how can I continue to be light and a source of light in the world where if my neighbor needs some help that I can help them.

because I don't feel heavy and tired and frustrated. And I can do it with joy, right? Because when I was writing those letters or making those calls for the Biden campaign, like the energy that was going into that was like, like, I'm just focused purely on destination, right? No journey. Like I'm miserable doing this thing, but I want this outcome. And so I'm going to do it. And so, and the reason why I say this could be unpopular is that

The traditional view of altruism and responsibility and giving back is like measured in these more tangible tactical things like how much money did you donate to XYZ cause? How much time did you spend volunteering and whatnot? And the view that I'm proposing here is how can you be the best and lightest version of yourself such that every interaction you have with people could be

one of lightness. And of course, again, like that's pressure, right? Not every single one. Like I have bad days, I have shoot -a -days where I'm a curmudgeon and I like go to the butcher shop and like, course that happens too. But how can I try more often to be a source of light and follow things that make me feel lighter? you know, that's where I'm at right now. I don't know if that's where I'll be in a few years, but.

It's not the traditional, like, I'm gonna spend more time volunteering and that's how I feel like I'm giving back and being altruistic. You can also say, I'm lazy. Some people will listen and say, dude's lazy, he doesn't wanna make fucking phone calls.

Pat (40:21)
Well, Biden won the election, you must have made a couple of good ones.

Ashwin (40:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat (40:28)
So we talked about high school, arrogant high school Ashwin. But I also know that you married your high school

Ashwin (40:33)
you

Pat (40:36)
did you always have a monogamous mindset, a serious mindset when it comes to finding the right partner and settling down?

Ashwin (40:42)
I think I was monogamous by circumstance, not by choice. Like at 16 or 17, if I had, if I had game, I think I would have used it. I just,

like, I was arrogant and then towards the end of high school, and this kind of changed when Savannah entered the picture. So I liked her for years and she rejected me outright.

better. And then I remember Savannah saying like, man, I would just never date you. Not, she didn't know at the time I was interested, but I was. And that, that sucked. and then, you know, like I was like changing and gently growing up, like slowly shedding this cocky exterior. And Savannah and I started becoming closer and closer friends.

And then I asked her out on a date and she still said So it's kind of like rejection number two. And then slowly like I.

I realized that this cocky persona, which really wasn't me, it was just the persona that I was putting on, and think a lot of teenage boys put this on, It was killing any chance of actual connection with and that's when I slowly started to shed.

know, cockiness. And then eventually we started dating.

just, it's like kind of new. Like, when, like on the first date we went on, and there's like a part of you that knows it's dumb, like I'm 17, like, you know, you don't, you don't find a life partner at 17. That's like one side of you is saying this. And then there's another part of you that's just like, she's the one. It just, she just is.

I got lucky. Like I got several chances. I'm glad she finally said yes. I would have said no to me to it first, by the way, like looking back, you know, but I'm glad I was able to use that experience even at like 16, 17 to grow

Pat (42:34)
Wow, persistence pays off.

Ashwin (42:36)
Not always, but it did in this case, yeah.

Pat (42:39)
it's not always easy when you're young to stay committed, especially if life takes you in different directions

Was commitment ever a challenge for you?

Ashwin (42:47)
Yeah, it was.

This is like one of the harder parts of the growth journey. was, I think, maybe two or three years into college, we were like semi long distance, two and half hours apart. we split up for a bit because I had started developing feelings kind of for someone else.

They were like very surface level, but that this is kind of, you know, the hedonism theme that you were talking about. that, like was the worst, like two months ever. where kind of like this fleeting desire like sent my life into what felt like a bit of a train wreck for a couple of

and then thankfully.

Pat (43:33)
How did you overcome it?

Ashwin (43:35)
was pretty miserable. sign. That was like a signal that like this direction that I'm going in is not the right direction. Like kind of chasing what feels like more fleeting desire. And then it like happened pretty quickly. I just like woke up one day and I was like, what the fuck am I doing?

was, I was happy before and then I was not happy. Like chasing this like fleeting thing. was like really unhappy, even though it seemed like it would be the thing that would, that would make me happy. it was an important lesson, man. Cause a lifetime is a long time.

I'm glad to have learned that, you there will be fleeting desires and that's like part of being human. and how do we, how do we embrace them without indulging in Right? Cause like, if I take those leading desires and I say, I don't like you, you are bad. That isn't the path to like living well. Right. But if you indulge in them, you're going to, you're going to create a trainwreck

So how do you embrace that part of you that wants something?

you know, how do you not alienate it? How do you just be with it, accept it, love

Pat (44:52)
that's a really interesting topic because it's obviously you wouldn't, don't want to suppress it and you want it, you want to be with it and accept it and know that it's fleeting. So tomorrow may not be there and just let it flow through you. But then the question is you want to have open communication in your relationship. Do you share it? I used to think about this a lot is like,

honesty for the sake of honesty, even though it may, is it worth it to be 100 % honest all of the time? Or is that one of those things you keep to yourself because you know you're going to hurt the other person?

Ashwin (45:26)
I think, like we all have a right to privacy that. Like there are some things.

that are kind of like ours to, like, it's, that's mine to interact with and figure out and learn from and maybe lean on an outside resource, right? Like a life coach or a therapist or something like

Like, I don't know that you're supposed to work through every everything with your life partner. You share most things.

But I don't know. do you have an opinion on this?

Pat (45:59)
so at one extreme you have, I share everything 100 % of the time. It's like that not practical and they don't want to hear all the garbage going through your mind all the time. So, and then the other end of that you're a closed book and they don't know anything that's going on in your head. And that's pretty catastrophic as well. So,

Ashwin (46:06)
I'm

Thank

Pat (46:17)
I think there's a balance there and it comes down to that feeling you had when something wasn't right. It's like you need to trust that gut feeling and say this is something my partner needs to know and you gotta trust that your gut and that feeling is gonna lead you in the right direction.

Ashwin (46:38)
Yeah, I agree with that. that's exactly how it's been. And maybe there will come a time where it's like, want to talk about this more. For the most part, it's a part of me that I know exists and exists in pretty much all human beings. it doesn't feel like a burden to put on a partner. At least not right now.

Pat (47:05)
maybe we could close on this question that I'm thinking maybe a good question to ask all of the guests who come on the show. It the podcast theme is growing up, but growing up means different things to different people. what does it mean to you to grow up?

Ashwin (47:20)
For me right now, it's being lighter. That's what growing up

when I think about people that I respect, I feel very wise and grown up, they just move through the world more lightly. Things don't get to them as much.

You know, like, and I mentioned this earlier, we're considering, gently considering family planning and stuff. like if the kid just wants like stop and like look at a rock, then I won't be like, all right, let's look at this rock. It's cool. Like amazing. you know, like I want to be able to be like that. That's what growing up to me feels like right now is how can you exist in this world that is often chaotic? That's often divided. That's got, there's like a lot of, there's a lot of hatred in it. but how can we.

just be more loving, more light. what do I want to be when I get older? I want to be lighter.

Pat (48:18)
people who want to learn more about you where would they go?

Ashwin (48:21)
Yeah, if you, so like the latest business I'm working on is called Unpinned. It's where we teach about wine and the documentary In Pursuit of Flavor is going to be released as a part of that. And so you can watch In Pursuit of Flavor on Apple TV or Amazon Prime or whatnot, or you can join Unpinned. And hopefully at some point you'd be able to read my book, but it still exists as a manuscript,

But yeah, the In Pursuit of Flavor where Unpinned are great ways to kind of follow my journey a bit more.

Pat (48:55)
part of it is a course online that people can go through at their own pace, but there's also some live events, if I'm not mistaken.

Ashwin (49:03)
Yeah, that's so I did tons of wine tastings in person. We started living abroad, so in person became challenging. And so we made what we think is the world's best wine course and we pair it with downloadable wine guides. We do live and virtual events. We we leverage Instagram quite a bit, actually. So we'll post like quizzes every day and then for our members, I'll explain the quiz answers. It's basically my way of

Wine is one of these things that can be so enjoyable, but creates so much, there's so much pomp and circumstance and plus and snobbery around it that turns a lot of people off. And for whatever reason, this has turned out to be the thing that makes me light up. And so I love to just share everything I know about wine and then try to also make a career out it, right? That's also the other half of

Pat (49:52)
we'll put the link to in the description as well as the link to the documentary, I watched it and I thought it was really unique because it gives you a history of wine and you travel to the birthplace of wine and...

but there's a really big piece of it that's like personal to you and your story. And there's flashbacks into your past. And there's even an actor that plays like the younger version of yourself. That was a really unique take on a documentary and you get a better sense of who Ashwin is and the life lesson along the way too.

So I highly recommend it. Ashwin, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was a real pleasure talking with you. I would love to have you on again,

Ashwin (50:29)
guys.

I'm honored and thrilled to have been here, Pat. Thanks for having me and can't wait for the next one.

Pat (50:44)
Alright.

Pat (50:47)
Hey listeners, thank you so much for tuning in! I hope you found today’s episode both enjoyable and valuable on your personal transformation journey.
I’m truly grateful to everyone who’s reached out with feedback and support—it means the world to me and helps shape the show into what it’s meant to be.

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Thank you again for listening, and I can’t wait to share the next episode with you. Until then, take care and keep aiming up!